New war on its way

[Marcus Marulus]

Abkhaz rebels exult over "liberation" from Georgians

Abkhaz rebels exult over "liberation" from Georgians

Ilya Kachayev

Reuters North American News Service

Aug 13, 2008 06:38 EST

CHKHALTA, Georgia, Aug 13 (Reuters) - Jubilant rebel troops proclaimed the "liberation" of Abkhazia on Wednesday as they surveyed a remote gorge abandoned by Georgian forces, who dropped weapons, ammunition and clothes in their flight.

The Abkhazian rebel forces took advantage of the defeat of Tbilisi's troops in South Ossetia, another separatist area where the Russian army drove back the Georgians at the weekend, to capture the Kodori gorge on Tuesday.

"Abkhazia has been completely liberated, there are now no Georgian troops on our territory. Abkhazia has reinstated its territorial sovereignty, we are just happy we have peace," Alexander Melnik, the unrecognised state's defence minister, told Reuters.

Russian troops did not appear to have been present before or during the assault. This correspondent has not seen a single soldier in Russian uniform since they pulled out two days ago.

"They left just before the operation started," Melnik said.

He was speaking in Chkhalta, once capital of the Georgian-backed administration of Abkhazia and now under total rebel control. The headquarters of the Georgian-backed government was almost totally destroyed.

Boxes of bullets, grenades and shells, mostly with English-language labels, lay on the roadside. At one point troops had to move a pile of mortar shells before they could drive on.

One stockpile of ammunition, machine guns and mortars on five large trailers had been mined by the retreating Georgians, but the explosives had failed to explode.

The Kodori gorge was the only part of Abkhazia, wedged between the Black Sea and the Caucasus mountains, still held by Tbilisi when its forces were defeated by the rebels in 1993.

The only trace of Georgian control was the still-operational Geo Magti mobile phone network which allowed some contact with the outside world.
Several kilometres (miles) from the government building was the undamaged barracks building.

The Georgian troops had abandoned jeans, flak jackets, helmets, toiletries, magazines, underpants and half-packed rucksacks when they fled.

English-language instructions for a Bushmaster automatic rifle lay by one bed, and piles of destroyed American-made guns still smoked by the side of the road.

A pair of Abkhazian soldiers brandished an undestroyed assault rifle they had found. The only shooting this correspondent heard was them firing into the air in triumph.

Almost all the civilian inhabitants of the gorge appeared to have fled, and their houses were empty.

The village of Azhara, further up the gorge, was deserted although cattle still wandered between some of the houses. The houses were intact with no sign of shell damage.

"Perhaps some went to Georgia, perhaps some went up the mountains. We can see their cattle though, so they cannot have gone far," Melnik said. "I can guarantee that now this will be a peaceful place for the cattle."

(Writing by Oliver Bullough; Editing by Angus MacSwan)

Source: Reuters North American News Service

[Marcus Marulus]

US: Russia must keep its word to leave Georgia - Yahoo! News

[Dux]

Originally Posted by Arthur Gordon Pym

Are you sure about all of this? In Transnistria, Krim, Gagauzia it was certainly the case. But the Georgian situation is specific. Didn't Abkhazians yearn for independence from Georgia at least since 1921, when they were forcefully incorporated into Georgia, with their culture and language suppressed in the ensuing decades? They never reconciled with the situation. South Ossetia already fought against the Menshevik regime of Georgia in 1918. OK, it is possible that some of the independenstist movements were manipulated by the Russian secret services, for the aims of the Russian imperialist power politics, but it does not make the claims of the indigenous peoples less legitimate, especially in case of Abkhazia.

Transnistria is altogether another case. I am sorry the Moldovans did not manage to solve that problem.

South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Adjaria are 3 completely different situations.
As I said in another post, I see the wish for independence in Abkhazia righteous, but not the same for Adjaria and South Ossetia.

1. Abkhazians are indigenous people to that region, distinct from Georgians.
2. Alans (Ossetians) are 50.000 foreigners from the North-side of the Caucasus.
3. Adjarians are simply muslim-influenced Georgians, which were being pecked by another Russian puppet (Abashidze).

[Marcus Marulus]

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[Marcus Marulus]

The representatives of the Hungarian Jassic community held demonstrations in Budapest in favour of their South Ossetian brethren. The Jassic people (Jászok) are descendants of Ossets who settled in Hungary in 13th century, coming from Caucasus. In the ensuing centuries they assimilated themselves linguistically, losing their original Iranic language (already in the beginning of 16th century) and adopting Hungarian. Nevertheless, they preserved sense of separate identity and local self-rule, independent of the county jurisdiction or feudal lords, until 1876.

The Jassic people live in the region known as "Jászság" (Jazygia), which comprises the north-western part of the Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok county. Their cultural and political center is the town of Jászberény. They consider themselves Hungarians (often very patriotically so), though they also preserved their particular sub-ethnic identity.

Ellenreakció az Orosz Nagykövetség előtt az egységes Oszétiáért - videóval | barikád.hu (in Hungarian only)

[Sohni]

Originally Posted by Arthur Gordon Pym

The representatives of the Hungarian Jassic community held demonstrations in Budapest in favour of their South Ossetian brethren.

Supporters of Russian imperialism even there. As an excuse for them, I don't think they realize what is truly going on, they just see their centuries-far connection to Ossetians and Russian propaganda.

Too bad they don't realize they are actually yelling "Sovetski Sojuz!!!"

[BeliAndjeo]

Originally Posted by Sohni

Supporters of Russian imperialism even there. As an excuse for them, I don't think they realize what is truly going on, they just see their centuries-far connection to Ossetians and Russian propaganda.

Too bad they don't realize they are actually yelling "Sovetski Sojuz!!!"

Even if Russians were fighting agains hostile aliens while trying to preserve life on the Earth,you would still yelling that is Russian imperialism..I am not trying to justify their actions,but what are they doing is the same thing US are doing in the last 20th years and before and i am glad because of that. US are loosing it's power slowly but surely and they are not the only world cops anymore.By the way,what do you think,who gave them green light for attack on South Ossetia? Who was giving them military equipment in the last few years? Who is Georgian main ally? Who is still sending them weapons under name of "humanitarian help"? I understand you hate them for things they done to you,but maybe it is you who should stop listening Western medias war agains Russia...IMHO,that is much more deeper than it seems and i am affraid things are not going to be good for none of us,especially after ratification of aggreement between US and Poland about anti-missle shield,because they showed their real attention and that is possibillity of first missle strike on Russia..

[orieleye]

Conflict Exposes Obsolete Hardware

15 August 2008
By Simon Saradzhyan / Staff Writer

The brief but intensive armed conflict in South Ossetia has signaled Russia's willingness and ability to fight and win conflicts beyond its borders after years of focusing its war machine on nuclear deterrence and the suppression of internal security threats.

But while the conflict has demonstrated that Russia can and will coerce its post-Soviet neighbors with force if the West doesn't intervene, it has exposed the technical backwardness of its military.

The technical sophistication of the Russian forces turned out to be inferior in comparison with the Georgian military. While Georgia's armed forces operated Soviet-era T-72 tanks and Su-25 attack planes, both were upgraded with equipment such as night-vision systems to make them technologically superior to similar models operated by the Russian Ground Forces, said Konstantin Makiyenko, deputy director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies.

"The Russian forces had to operate in an environment of technical inferiority," Makiyenko said.

Another area where the Russian military appeared to have lagged behind the Georgian armed forces was in electronic warfare, said Anatoly Tsyganok, a retired army commando and independent military expert.

The Georgian forces were also well-trained, with many of them drilled by U.S. and Israeli advisers.

These factors helped the Georgian military easily take the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, located in a basin, after more than 10 hours of intensive air strikes and artillery fire on Aug. 7. The shelling of the city was probably carried out with the use of unmanned aerial vehicles for targeting -- a capability that Russia's armed forces have yet to acquire.

The Air Force's losses, including a long-range Tu-22, and helplessness in the face of air strikes by Georgian Su-25 attack planes and artillery fire on Tskhinvali as late as Monday should set off alarm bells in Russia, Makiyenko said. "The failure to quickly suppress the Georgian air defense despite rather rudimentary capabilities or to achieve air supremacy despite a lack of fighter planes in the Georgian air force shows the poor condition of the Russian Air Force," he said.

The loss of Russian planes might have come because of the poor training of pilots, who log only a fraction of the hundreds of flight hours that their NATO counterparts do annually, Netkachev wrote in Nezavisimaya Gazeta on Monday.

Russian intelligence bears responsibility too for failing to provide up-to-date information on the capabilities of the Georgian air defense and air force, Netkachev said. As recently as three years ago, Georgia had no pilots capable of flying the Israeli-upgraded Su-25 planes, he said, adding that Russian commanders should have known that Ukraine had supplied Buk and Osa air-defense systems to Georgia and might have trained its operators.

"One general lesson that the Russian side should learn is that it is possible to build a capable, well-trained force in just three to four years, as Saakashvili did," Makiyenko said.

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/600/42/369809.htm

[The Venetian]

August 16, 2008, 17:35 Schroeder blames ‘gambler’ Saakashvili for conflict

The former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has blamed Georgia for starting the conflict in South Ossetia and described its President as a “gambler”. In an interview with the German magazine Der Spiegel, he criticised President Mikhail Saakashvili and warned against speeding up the country's accession to NATO. "Imagine that we had been forced into military action on the side of Georgia as a NATO member, on the side of an obvious gambler, as one must describe Saakashvili," he said.

"I don't believe Russia is pursuing a policy of annexation and I also don't believe that there will be a return to the previous status quo for South Ossetia and Abkhazia. That is out of the question."

Schroeder told the influential magazine that the events shouldn't undermine Germany's strategic partnership with Russia and claimed Western governments had made “serious errors” in their dealings with Moscow.

"I think little of demonizing Russia, and I believe Moscow will soon see the need for greater integration into the international community," he said.

The Former Chancellor has close links with Russia and is Chairman of the German-Russian consortium building a gas pipeline under the Baltic.

RussiaToday : News : Schroeder blames ‘gambler’ Saakashvili for conflict

[Ricardo Reis]

[The Venetian]

August 15, 2008, 1:01 Beyond South Ossetia – the new world order

Georgia’s (still) President Mikhail Saakashvili threw the dice and lost everything. His blind ambition to return South Ossetia to Tbilisi’s control through force has resulted in an unmitigated defeat for Georgia’s sovereignty. The world needs to take note and it signals things to come.

South Ossetia is a small and poor place. Who would have thought that it would herald the start of a new world order? But it has in ways almost no one could have imagined.

Saakashvili’s crazed mission to capture South Ossetia through war ends a paradigm – what is called the post-Cold era. Russia, for the first time as a new and very different state, used force beyond its borders since 1991. It did it in the name of protecting Russian citizens and defending internationally recognised peacekeepers. And both are justified - the West does the same. The world would be advised to get used to this as other ethnic Russians appeal for help beyond Russia’s borders.

Today we are all faced with the prickly debate defining the difference between state sovereignty and territorial integrity. Politicians and lawyers continue to talk about this. In the mean time, facts on the ground are proceeding forward with the most unpredictable consequences.

The catalyst for all this was Kosovo. The major Western powers decided Kosovo should be independent above the heads of the people on the ground. Today Russia listens to the people on the ground. And this is the important difference. Washington and Brussels have unwittingly admitted that self-determination is more important than a state’s sovereignty. Russia and Russians are following this lead. The post-Soviet space is poised for more change (of borders) and the West and its double-standards are the cause of this.

There is much criticism of Russia’s actions. It is said that Russia is backing international actors - South Ossetia and Abkhazia - not recognised by international law. But the fact of the matter is Moscow has forcibly demonstrated that the post-Cold War order supports only Western interests and that this approach needs to change. In the wake of South Ossetia’s invasion, Moscow is in touch with this new sentiment.

According to the West’s democracy theology, South Ossetia and Abkhazia cannot be recognised as independent. Why is this? Is it because independence for both would derail Saakashvili’s bid to join NATO? Of course it is! The West doesn’t know much about Georgia, South Ossetia, or Abkhazia. Nor does it really care. And Saakashvili has shown he can’t cross the divide between being a Georgian nationalist and a Western stooge.

I have no idea; maybe Saakashvili truly has acted in good faith, but what we all can see looks different. He failed to see that what is most important is the projection of Western security interests. And this has always been at the expense of Russia’s security concerns.

Saakashvili claims all his actions were in the name of the Georgian people. He doesn’t appear to understand he changed the world order. All people who wish to be free and have their own state have Saakashvili to thank.

I doubt that this is the legacy Saakashvili had hoped for. Saakashvili’s backers in Washington are surely cursing him for not doing what he was told. He was, after all, only a hired employee to take orders.

RussiaToday

[Sohni]

Originally Posted by BeliAndjeo

Even if Russians were fighting agains hostile aliens while trying to preserve life on the Earth,you would still yelling that is Russian imperialism..

A very good point! Be it Third Reich, Americans, jews, jihadists, alien lizardmen or Santa Claus - if they are helping us, the small nations near border of Russia to survive and work to dismantle the horrible Mordor in east - then ANY help is much appreciated!
Nothing can be worse than Soviet/Russian occupation.

IMHO,that is much more deeper than it seems and i am affraid things are not going to be good for none of us,especially after ratification of aggreement between US and Poland about anti-missle shield,because they showed their real attention and that is possibillity of first missle strike on Russia.

Any actions to support Georgia and other threatened nations are good actions. Missile shield is a small start, but we must begin from somewhere to stop the Eastern Hordes.

[BeliAndjeo]

Originally Posted by Sohni

A very good point! Be it Third Reich, Americans, jews, jihadists, alien lizardmen or Santa Claus - if they are helping us, the small nations near border of Russia to survive and work to dismantle the horrible Mordor in east - then ANY help is much appreciated!
Nothing can be worse than Soviet/Russian occupation.

I will not even dare to comment this

Originally Posted by Sohni

Any actions to support Georgia and other threatened nations are good actions. Missile shield is a small start, but we must begin from somewhere to stop the Eastern Hordes.

I hope you are realizing that you are calling for WWIII and nuclear holocaust and that in such case not even people with lame comments like yours are will not survive...

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Sohni

A very good point! Be it Third Reich, Americans, jews, jihadists, alien lizardmen or Santa Claus - if they are helping us, the small nations near border of Russia to survive and work to dismantle the horrible Mordor in east - then ANY help is much appreciated!

But why do you then slander the nations of South Ossetia and Abkhazia which only want to liberate themselves - with Russian help - from the Georgian Mordor under whose heel they never wanted to live, but were forced to by the Soviet Mordor led by two Georgians: Iosep Besarionidze Djugashvili (commonly known as Stalin) and Lavrenti Beria? Abkhazia does not deserve independence in your book, as I can see. When Estonia fought against Soviet/Russian imperialism, it was good then, but when peoples oppressed by some Georgian psychpath wish liberty, then you are against it. You are anti-imperialist only when Russian imperialism is in question, otherwise you support mini-imperialisms. Your only criterion to decide on whether some cause is just or not is up to the (perceived or real) Russian involvment in the affair. Your double standard is awful.

I already put you these questions, challenged you, but you failed to respond, while only shrieking about "Russian propaganda". Measures of self-defence undertaken by Estonia are justified, but so are also those of Abkhazia.

Originally Posted by Sohni

Nothing can be worse than Soviet/Russian occupation.

You use this slogan to denigrate peoples which strive for freedom, but can achieve it only with (some) Russian assistance. How pathetic!

Originally Posted by Sohni