Poland Asks for Apology Over Pact

[Menydh]

Poland Asks for Apology Over Pact

The Moscow Times
February 11, 2005

WARSAW -- Poland's president said Wednesday he will attend the commemorations of the end of World War II in May in Moscow, but said the notorious 1939 pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union should be condemned at the event.

"My decision is a yes, but we want this to be full of dignity and historical truth," President Aleksander Kwasniewski told TVN television during a visit to Washington.

"On May 9, words should be heard ... words of condemnation of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, words saying unequivocally that not all nations were given full sovereignty after World War II and not all could experience the democratic privileges enjoyed by a large part of the world," Kwasniewski said.

After the Nazi defeat, Poland became part of Moscow's sphere of influence and remained under communist rule until 1989.

A secret addendum to the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, also known as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which Nazi and Soviet leaders concluded in 1939, foresaw the division of much of Eastern Europe -- including Poland -- in case war broke out.

Shortly after German troops entered Poland in September 1939, Soviet troops occupied the country's east. Soviet forces then occupied the Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia in June 1940 but were driven out by the Germans a year later. The Soviet Army retook the Baltics in 1944 and reincorporated them into the Soviet Union. The Baltic states gained independence only after the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union, and only one of their leaders has accepted Russia's invitation to the May 9 anniversary celebrations in Moscow.


Latvian President Vaira Vike-Freiberga has agreed to participate, but she has urged Russia to denounce the pact, named for Nazi Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop and Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov.

If Russia were to renounce the secret pact, it would tacitly be acknowledging some responsibility for World War II -- a stance seen as sacrilege in a country that lost some 27 million people during the conflict.



[source]

[bocian]

I wouldn't count on it.

[Timo]

Who's to condem it? The states that are in power in the territories now known as the 'Federal Republic of Germany' and the 'Russian Federation' have nothing to do with the 'Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact'. The 'German Third Reich' and the 'United Soviet Socialist Republics' are gone and no more. There is no official from these two ex-countries that could apologize for the pact, nor would I think they could even consider doing such a thing. Poland created by stealing lands that 'Imperial Germany', the 'Russian Empire', and the "Austro-Hungarian Empire" held before the First World War, and the USSR (successor to the Czars) and the Third Reich (successor to the Kaisers) wanted back these lands and agree to partition Poland. Though, not only Poland, the USSR also got garrentees for Germany that it wouldn't interfere in the annexation of the Baltic States and parts of Finland. This was the history and reason for such a pact.
Yet, have the Polish apologized to the Czechs for taking part in it's partition when the Third Reich took Bohemia and Moravia? I don't think they have, nor do I think they would dream of doing so. The Poles were and are looking out for their best intrests, that is to be expected from a sane country. Though, to ask Modern Countries to apologize for some agree ment of the past, which they had nothing to do with, is insane. It is like demanding an apology from modern Italy for the Roman Conquests of lands or something similar. There is no connection, between the governments. It is only history and it means nothing to give such and apology - only words.

[bocian]

Originally Posted by Timo

Poland created by stealing lands that 'Imperial Germany', the 'Russian Empire', and the "Austro-Hungarian Empire" held before the First World War, and the USSR (successor to the Czars) and the Third Reich (successor to the Kaisers) wanted back these lands and agree to partition Poland.

Nonsense.

Why don't you go back a little further.

Ever hear of the partitions of Poland? Try reading a few history books.

Originally Posted by Timo

Yet, have the Polish apologized to the Czechs for taking part in it's partition when the Third Reich took Bohemia and Moravia?

And have the Czechs apologized for stealing Cieszyn? Polish land before the partitions, majority polish city, which was taken back to secure a strategic position in the south, since Germany now had Poland surrounded on three fronts.

They came in and annexed it in 1919 while Poland was at war with Bolsheviks.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by bocian

Nonsense.

It is the truth. Look at a map of 1914. There is no Polish State.

Why don't you go back a little further.

I could, but it has no baring on the conversation. I know there was a Poland of the past, a different state and government from the one of post WWI. Only the name is the same, and a few other things.

Ever hear of the partitions of Poland? Try reading a few history books.

Yes I have read many books, of history and those claiming to be history.
I know of the Partitions that took place in in 18th century, though we are talking of the 20th Century. At one time Lithuania was very large, now it is small. At one time Neatherlands had the lands of Belgium and Luxemburg, or you can go back further to when the Spanish or Austrians owned those lands. You can play the game of History, but it is so vast, and territories have switched hands so many times over the years. Who is to say who they truely belong to? It depends on one's point of view or their own agenda.

And have the Czechs apologized for stealing Cieszyn? Polish land before the partitions, majority polish city, which was taken back to secure a strategic position in the south, since Germany now had Poland surrounded on three fronts.They came in and annexed it in 1919 while Poland was at war with Bolsheviks.

This is only an excuse for taking another country's territory. Do you deny Danzig was German at this time? Would Germany have the same right to take Danzing or the other lands, lost after the Versailles Treaty, from the Polish? I think that you would say no. Your Polish Nationalism is to be expected. I don't think bad on you for that. However, don't deny that the Polish partitioned Czech lands. As to your questions of the Czechs apologizing, they wont do it either for the same nationalist reasons. Why admitt themselves wrong, when they believe they were in the right, for the best of their country?

[bocian]

Timo, what you said was that Poland stole lands, which is Rubbish, no matter how you try to spin it.

The partitions wiped out one of the largest states in Europe, and the illegal occupation lasted for 123 years. It wasn't a case of Poles suddenly appearing, and stealing a whole bunch of land from a bunch of countries. It simply regained it's independence, after the occupiers successfully weakened each other. Immediately afterwards, Poland was at war with Bolshevik Russia. Seizing the opportunity, Czechoslovakia annexed parts of Poland, which were re-taken 20 years later, and rightfully so.

People living in 1918, might still have remembered grandparents telling them of a Poland which was once free. They lived through uprisings. They experienced the full effect of Germanization and Russification, the attempted destruction of their culture and language, the murder and imprisonment of loved ones, book burnings, young men conscripted and sent to their deaths for Prussian or Russian wars and of course, hatred of everything Polish.

These partitions were very real, and still very fresh in the minds of every Pole in 1918 as well as in 1939.

This isn't modern day Italy and the Roman empire. To over-simplify the dynamics of the situation, without fully grasping the policies, nature, and history of it is insulting. Calling it theft, is spitting on the face of every Pole.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by bocian

Timo, what you said was that Poland stole lands, which is Rubbish, no matter how you try to spin it.

Quite true. It was the poles, letting the Allies steal the lands for them.
So they were rather partners in crime with the Allied Powers.

The partitions wiped out one of the largest states in Europe, and the illegal occupation lasted for 123 years. It wasn't a case of Poles suddenly appearing, and stealing a whole bunch of land from a bunch of countries. It simply regained it's independence, after the occupiers successfully weakened each other. Immediately afterwards, Poland was at war with Bolshevik Russia. Seizing the opportunity, Czechoslovakia annexed parts of Poland, which were re-taken 20 years later, and rightfully so. People living in 1918, might still have remembered grandparents telling them of a Poland which was once free. They lived through uprisings. They experienced the full effect of Germanization and Russification, the attempted destruction of their culture and language, the murder and imprisonment of loved ones, book burnings, young men conscripted and sent to their deaths for Prussian or Russian wars and of course, hatred of everything Polish. These partitions were very real, and still very fresh in the minds of every Pole in 1918 as well as in 1939.

I have heard this story many times. Yet it is so characteristically similar to what Germans had to endure at the hands of Polish, Czechs, French and Danish. Germany too had lands taken, and had campaigns of de-gemanification, had mass murders, mass explusions, land siezed, property stolen or destroyed, and the list goes on and on. It is a common story, it happens to many countries, that is what happens in war. Their is no use of us arguing over it. You all have your Polish state now. What would an apology, from a Puppet Offical of Federal Germany or a Representative of the Russian Federation, do at all? It is stupid. They had nothing to do with the Pact at all.
I am tired of hearing about it, infact. We should be looking towards the future of Europe, not rehatching disputes and wars of the past. What's done is done and can't be undone.

This isn't modern day Italy and the Roman empire. To over-simplify the dynamics of the situation, without fully grasping the policies, nature, and history of it is insulting. Calling it theft, is spitting on the face of every Pole.

It was theft, at the barrel of a gun. Those were the terms of surrender, to give up those lands that would become Polish. You may think those are rightfully in the hands of a Polish State, I am not going to dispute that, nor do I see the need. The clear fact is, if Imperial Germany didn't agree to the cease fire, more Germans would've died, the war would've continued and who knows how more bloody the outcome would've been. Germany lost her lands, people, pride, government, and Kaiser, to that treaty - at the barrel of a gun. You may agree with how things turned out, that is your right - I won't even try to convince you otherwise.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Timo

Quite true. It was the poles, letting the Allies steal the lands for them.
So they were rather partners in crime with the Allied Powers.

Ah.. having England as a 'friend' doesn't seem to pay much if what you want is an honest and loyal partner.

And Bocian, Timo is right. Either you look forward to a future of friendship and cooperation or you get stuck in a past with no future. Other issues can be settled in future times and in different terms to those used to 'settle' them in the past.

[bocian]

Originally Posted by Timo

Quite true. It was the poles, letting the Allies steal the lands for them.
So they were rather partners in crime with the Allied Powers.

I'm having trouble following you. Is there something you misunderstood in my previous post? Why do you insist on calling it theft?

Originally Posted by Timo

I have heard this story many times. Yet it is so characteristically similar to what Germans had to endure at the hands of Polish,

When did the Germans have to endure this at the hands of Poles? I agree, to some extent, it might have happened, after WW1, but certainly not prior to. It wasn't the Poles who were engaged in mass colonization of Germany, nor did they tag team Germany with another power and wipe it off the map! Twice! There were even attempts to do it in the 11th century...

Originally Posted by Timo

It is a common story, it happens to many countries, that is what happens in war.

Unfortunately, during the partitions, there was no 'war', it was expansionism and gangsterism at its best. Again, you are over-simplifying.

Originally Posted by Timo

Their is no use of us arguing over it.

No there is not.

Originally Posted by Timo

You all have your Polish state now. What would an apology, from a Puppet Offical of Federal Germany or a Representative of the Russian Federation, do at all? It is stupid.

Words are meaningless, both Germany and Russia can never give back what they have taken--millions of lives. Do you realise just how much Poland lost during the war? Do you understand, that because of the war, Poland is still suffering today, and will probably struggle for the next 100 years? Actions, not words, would be much more helpful.

Originally Posted by Timo

We should be looking towards the future of Europe, not rehatching disputes and wars of the past.

Yes, we should look forward to the future, but this does not for even one second mean that the prestent day is not directly intertwined with what happened 60 or 100 years ago. The effects are still felt every single day, especially in Poland.

Originally Posted by Timo

What's done is done and can't be undone.

No it can not.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by bocian

Words are meaningless, both Germany and Russia can never give back what they have taken--millions of lives. Do you realise just how much Poland lost during the war? Do you understand, that because of the war, Poland is still suffering today, and will probably struggle for the next 100 years? Actions, not words, would be much more helpful.

Yes, we should look forward to the future, but this does not for even one second mean that the prestent day is not directly intertwined with what happened 60 or 100 years ago. The effects are still felt every single day, especially in Poland.

The Germany and Russia of the past is no more. How can a stupid apology by different mordern governments do anything? What would you have them do, give up more lands to Poland?

[Ebusitanus]

Good show there Timo!

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Timo

The Germany and Russia of the past is no more. How can a stupid apology by different mordern governments do anything?

Exactly. And while our nations and our peoples become endangered species and while the whole of Europe is in the brink of collapse, some waste miserably the little time that we have left disintering the deads of the past.

Poland will suffer the same fate of all other Nations in Europe, it will vanish. And not because of the past but because of the present, and because some are choosing to re-live the past instead of working in the present.

[bocian]

Originally Posted by Timo

The Germany and Russia of the past is no more. How can a stupid apology by different mordern governments do anything? What would you have them do, give up more lands to Poland?

I did not demand an apology, not even a stupid one.

And, no, not land, just a trillion $.

[bocian]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Exactly. And while our nations and our peoples become endangered species and while the whole of Europe is in the brink of collapse, some waste miserably the little time that we have left disintering the deads of the past.

Poland will suffer the same fate of all other Nations in Europe, it will vanish. And not because of the past but because of the present, and because some are choosing to re-live the past instead of working in the present.

You are right, but don't you think that in a would-be Europe filled with Nationalist governments, similar scenarios won't be played out, and even worse, won't end up conflict?

[Menydh]

Most nationalist feelings I've seen throughout Europe in people are about national pride. A beautiful feeling indeed. In France (except for Parisians ), Germany, Ireland, Italy, the Czek Republic, Hungary.. people literally offering you their knowledge on their local culture, because they want to show off, not because they want you to feel jealous or any other such thing. Whenever they suggest you a local food, drink, a monument, a local event, ... they are sharing it with you because they are proud of it. That is a natural nationalist feeling.

It happens to me when I see tourists asking me for directions on local culture and monuments here in Spain. I try to offer the best directions because it makes me proud and I want to share it with them. Ok.. so on a few occasions I've been a little evil and given them the wrong directions to get them lost.

Only in one country national pride seemed to be about hatred for others, and culture and monuments sightseeings little more than a profitable business and many times even a rip off. Britain. That is not a nationalist feeling, it is vile jingoism.


Having said that, in a scenario of an Europe with Nationalist governments still close intra-European full cooperation would be a strong need.

In the modern world no one country or nation in Europe can afford to face outside competition on its own. That would be suicidal.

In the past the rest of the World didn't count much, if at all. In the present we are facing a much hard competition from Asia, America, Oceania. We can only compete if we stick together.

Further to that, no one Nationalist government in Europe can exist without the support of other Nationalist governments. It would be isolated and smashed by the Socialist and Liberal governments. So the need for close cooperation starts at the most primary levels.