Poland Asks for Apology Over Pact

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Polak

That's right, Poland isn't a real country created back in 900AD by several ethnically related Slavic tribes, which remained a country even when not recognised on maps drawn by others....it's actually a fake country, made up of Germans, Austro-Hungarians and Russians.

Hey, first thing, ease down on the sarcasm if you wanted this to be a rational conversation.

If a "country" has no government or territory, it isn't a country. Poland had neither. Yes, there were people who considered themselves ethnically poles, yet this is not a reason to (re)construct a country for them. You also don't differenciate between eras of history. The Polish Country of 900 C.E. isn't the same as the one founded via the Versailles Treaty. The only constant that I can see between those times, is that you have a people who consider themsevles polish in a region, the even some of the regions have moved and changed since then, due to migration and (war). Currently Russia still holds a peice of Prussia, should they have their country recreated merely because it was one in the past? **Or perhaps you would give up some of the territories that Poland gained after WWII, and WWI that she never had before before her "recreation"? If you just want to recreate the old poland, and all.** I also disagree with your comment, no matter how sarcastic, of Poland being a fake country, that isn't my opinion at all - and if you read through all my comments you would've realised that.

When Poland was partitioned in the 18th century, the Poles disappeared. They all vanished from their former country, and were replaced.
Poland should never have been (re)created in the 20th century, because there was nothing left of that country. No people, no language, no culture, no history...not even any artefacts. It all somehow vanished after the Prussians, Austrians and Russians took Poland apart.

I did addressed this above. I just want to make a comment. You imply that "Poles" are a never changing or moving group. This is not so, we all know that Polish, just like German, and English (etc.), has gone through changes in culture, language, and slightly in geography. For instance, I no longer speak Old High-German of the Middle-Ages, nor would I fit into their customs, and my land of Swabia was huge back then compared to what it is now - now it is only a few un-unified counties in the states of Württemberg and Western Bavaria. We swabians have no right to demand our old Grand-Duchy back. It is gone, history, just like our ancestors that lived in that time. No matter how nostalgic I want to be, I can't recreate that which is lost to time.

(my comments with in ** denote sarcasm, just to be fair)

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Polak

Another gem...

That's right, Poland should apologize...there were millions of Czech lives lost in the process, millions of others had to suffer untold misery, we raped the nation's resources and set back its development for generations...

Yup, I can definitely see a parallel there between Poland's occupation of that bit of land, and what Germany and the USSR did to us. Mmmm....

Though aren't you just making excuses? If you want to have nations apologize for past grievences, Poland isn't without any. Though Poland so loves to play victim on the international stage.

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Timo

Though aren't you just making excuses? If you want to have nations apologize for past grievences, Poland isn't without any. Though Poland so loves to play victim on the international stage.

I'm not claiming we are owed an apology for anything.

My point here is that comparing Poland's invasion of Cieszyn to the Nazi/Communist attack on Poland is just plain stupid.

Those two events can only be compared in the most superficial fashion. Dig a little deeper and you'll find there are no similarities.

And yet, many like to bring up this event to illustrate that Poland is not without fault. Of course we aren't, but you'll have to do a hell of a lot better than Cieszyn to make that sort of a point.

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Timo

Hey, first thing, ease down on the sarcasm if you wanted this to be a rational conversation.

If a "country" has no government or territory, it isn't a country. Poland had neither. Yes, there were people who considered themselves ethnically poles, yet this is not a reason to (re)construct a country for them. You also don't differenciate between eras of history. The Polish Country of 900 C.E. isn't the same as the one founded via the Versailles Treaty. The only constant that I can see between those times, is that you have a people who consider themsevles polish in a region, the even some of the regions have moved and changed since then, due to migration and (war). Currently Russia still holds a peice of Prussia, should they have their country recreated merely because it was one in the past? **Or perhaps you would give up some of the territories that Poland gained after WWII, and WWI that she never had before before her "recreation"? If you just want to recreate the old poland, and all.** I also disagree with your comment, no matter how sarcastic, of Poland being a fake country, that isn't my opinion at all - and if you read through all my comments you would've realised that.



I did addressed this above. I just want to make a comment. You imply that "Poles" are a never changing or moving group. This is not so, we all know that Polish, just like German, and English (etc.), has gone through changes in culture, language, and slightly in geography. For instance, I no longer speak Old High-German of the Middle-Ages, nor would I fit into their customs, and my land of Swabia was huge back then compared to what it is now - now it is only a few un-unified counties in the states of Württemberg and Western Bavaria. We swabians have no right to demand our old Grand-Duchy back. It is gone, history, just like our ancestors that lived in that time. No matter how nostalgic I want to be, I can't recreate that which is lost to time.

(my comments with in ** denote sarcasm, just to be fair)

There are differences between a nation and your definition of country. But if a nation stands strong for centuries in the face of extreme adversity, then it deserves to have a country.

Please don't compare Swabia to Poland again. There are no paralleles.

Poland remained a nation unified by blood, culture, language and a longing to re-unify under our old flag.

Such prizes should be granted on merit, but we sure as hell, more than anyone in Europe, deserved the right to become a country again.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Polak

There are differences between a nation and your definition of country. But if a nation stands strong for centuries in the face of extreme adversity, then it deserves to have a country.

Then do the Basques deserve their own country? Do the Rumansch? Do the Corsicans? Do the inuits of Greenland and Canada? The Kurds in the middle east? I could go on. There are many nations of people without countries, being "strong" for centuries in adversity doesn't make one deserve anything.

Please don't compare Swabia to Poland again. There are no paralleles.

I guess my people aren't 'deserving', unlike yours.

Poland remained a nation unified by blood, culture, language and a longing to re-unify under our old flag.

Nations don't deserve countries, simply for being united.

Such prizes should be granted on merit, but we sure as hell, more than anyone in Europe, deserved the right to become a country again.

What makes polish any better than others?

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Timo

Then do the Basques deserve their own country? Do the Rumansch? Do the Corsicans? Do the inuits of Greenland and Canada? The Kurds in the middle east? I could go on. There are many nations of people without countries, being "strong" for centuries in adversity doesn't make one deserve anything.

You're gonna compare Poles to Inuits now?! With all due respect, their history and achievements do not stand up to ours.

I guess my people aren't 'deserving', unlike yours.

Your people did not show the will to remain a people. You don't deserve to be anything more than a province of Germany.

Nations don't deserve countries, simply for being united.

You don't even know what united means. You probably think it's a piece of paper with a couple of signatures on it.

What makes polish any better than others?

We're not better, but we know what we want, and what we deserve.

Not only have we been a nation since 900AD, but we've achieved a lot...not only for ourselves but for Europe as well.

The greed and fear that caused the partitions are no cause to keep us from having a country.

Poland's resurrection was justice pure and simple.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Polak

You're gonna compare Poles to Inuits now?! With all due respect, their history and achievements do not stand up to ours.

Yet, that is from your point of view. To them, their people and culture is just as precious. Inuits was only one of the peoples I stated.

Your people did not show the will to remain a people. You don't deserve to be anything more than a province of Germany.

You know very little about Swabians. Though, you point is taken, I'd rather be in a larger nation made of many german ethnicities (i.e., Germany) than of a small Swabian country.

You don't even know what united means. You probably think it's a piece of paper with a couple of signatures on it.

How do you know that I don't know what united means? Do you have telephathy? And no, I don't think it is what you've stated.

We're not better, but we know what we want, and what we deserve.

We agree. Though I would say it is what you think you diserve. Others may have different opinions on the matter, but the reality is you have Poland. That's what matters now.

Not only have we been a nation since 900AD, but we've achieved a lot...not only for ourselves but for Europe as well.

Ok.

The greed and fear that caused the partitions are no cause to keep us from having a country.

Hmm... like I said, it's in the past.

Poland's resurrection was justice pure and simple.

As you see it.

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Timo

Yet, that is from your point of view. To them, their people and culture is just as precious. Inuits was only one of the peoples I stated.

I'm sure they do, but their achievements still don't stand up to ours. They never really had a country. Unlike Poles, they don't have that tradition to go back to.

In fact, how can you compare Poles to Basques and Corsicans? Did these people have empires that guarded Europe from Islamic invaders? Not that I'm aware of.

You know very little about Swabians. Though, you point is taken, I'd rather be in a larger nation made of many german ethnicities (i.e., Germany) than of a small Swabian country.

You're right, I know little about Swabians.

But I suspect that has something to do with the fact that the Swabians have been a much more passive ethnicity, in terms of guarding their nationhood, than us Poles.

What you just said in that paragraph illustrates the diffenece between us. I would never want to be part of a larger entity ruled by Germans, Austrians or Russians.

How do you know that I don't know what united means? Do you have telephathy? And no, I don't think it is what you've stated.

You seem to think a country is just some legal enitity...that doesn't have to be a true nation, as long as all the signatures are in place.

We agree. Though I would say it is what you think you diserve. Others may have different opinions on the matter, but the reality is you have Poland. That's what matters now.

But just because someone has a personal opinion doesn't mean they should not be challenged on it, especially as that opinion is based on a skewed view of history.

Hmm... like I said, it's in the past.

If a wrong can be corrected, then it should be. The Poles were still there, their nation was still there...they were wronged in the past, but that wrong was being felt in their present.

Your arguments would actually have a leg to stand on if, for example, the vast majority of Poles were gone from those territories...the Polish language died...Polish culture was something to be seen on special occasions...or in museums. But that wasn't the case.

Those arguing that Poland no longer deserved a country are simply parroting the views of certain strategists of the 19th and 20th centuries...who weren't concerned with the true meaning of a nation, but with what the balance of power in Europe should look like. Poland didn't make sense to them, because it didn't have a role to play in their world. I suspect Belgium and Switzerland were more worthy of nationhood to these ignoramuses.

As you see it.

I'm right and I make no apologies for that.

[Russian Imperialist]

I think it is a right time for weak Polish statesmen to probe into even more weak Russian statesmen. The latter are ready to ask pardon for everything what was made in Russian history and to give up all what was acquired during the centuries of hard work and battles.
If Russia were led by real national leaders nobody even could think about such an apology!
The Ribbentrop-Molotov pact is a pearl of the history of international affairs of all times. Poland rejected all attempts of the USSR to create a system of mutual safety (also with France, Britain, etc). Poland behaved very silly relying on franco-british garuantees. Don't forget that in 1920 Poland acquired Ukrainian/Belorussian territories far to the EAST of the Kerson line.
But in any way: strong countries win, weak ones lose!
And I as a citizen of losing country I can rely to my and my people's forces only, and not to moralizing to our enemies.

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Russian Imperialist

I think it is a right time for weak Polish statesmen to probe into even more weak Russian statesmen. The latter are ready to ask pardon for everything what was made in Russian history and to give up all what was acquired during the centuries of hard work and battles.
If Russia were led by real national leaders nobody even could think about such an apology!
The Ribbentrop-Molotov pact is a pearl of the history of international affairs of all times. Poland rejected all attempts of the USSR to create a system of mutual safety (also with France, Britain, etc). Poland behaved very silly relying on franco-british garuantees. Don't forget that in 1920 Poland acquired Ukrainian/Belorussian territories far to the EAST of the Kerson line.
But in any way: strong countries win, weak ones lose!
And I as a citizen of losing country I can rely to my and my people's forces only, and not to moralizing to our enemies.

Well, no one is seriously asking for any apology. I think Polish politicians must be having a slow week or something...nothing better to do.

In regards to Poland behaving very silly...there's no way in hell Stalin could be trusted.

We had three choices...Hitler, Stalin...or a wishy washy pact with the French and British. We took the last option, because making a pact with the devil (Hitler or Stalin) was a bit too much to swallow.

[Phlegethon]

Originally Posted by Polak

Poland remained a nation unified by blood, culture, language and a longing to re-unify under our old flag.

Is that the reason why we got millions of Poles here since the late 19th century and why a majority of ethnic Poles does not live in Poland and does not plan to returning there? A very strange form of reunification indeed.

Actually I even got the impression that Poles do not really want to live among Poles. They just want to live better, no matter where in the world.

[Johnny Reb]

Originally Posted by Phlegethon

Is that the reason why we got millions of Poles here since the late 19th century and why a majority of ethnic Poles does not live in Poland and does not plan to returning there? A very strange form of reunification indeed.

Actually I even got the impression that Poles do not really want to live among Poles. They just want to live better, no matter where in the world.

Every nation has a diaspora. There's nothing uniquely Polish about that.

[Phlegethon]

Sizewise the Polish diaspora is pretty much unparalleled, except maybe the Irish.

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Phlegethon

Is that the reason why we got millions of Poles here since the late 19th century and why a majority of ethnic Poles does not live in Poland and does not plan to returning there? A very strange form of reunification indeed.

Actually I even got the impression that Poles do not really want to live among Poles. They just want to live better, no matter where in the world.

This is a different issue.

Like the Irish, Poles began leaving their country to escape proverty. Economic woes started in Poland even before the partitions...largerly as a result of a corrupt, inefficient early democracy.

The partitions didn't really help the average Pole, as you might imagine, and a culture of migration sprang up in Poland.

People started leaving for the Ruhr, France, America...even Brazil. That has continued to this day. Polish migrants have done well abroad, so the cycle continues.

I didn't have a choice when my family left Poland, altough I have been back, and even lived there again for a couple of years.

I don't see what that has got to do with staying Polish and patriotic. Sometimes people don't have a choice, but you don't forget who you are.

[Johnny Reb]

Originally Posted by Phlegethon

Sizewise the Polish diaspora is pretty much unparalleled, except maybe the Irish.

Just pretend it's like the volkerwanderung

[bocian]

Originally Posted by Phlegethon

They just want to live better, no matter where in the world.

I don't think this a uniquely Polish phenomenon.

[Russian Imperialist]

Originally Posted by Polak

We had three choices...Hitler, Stalin...or a wishy washy pact with the French and British. We took the last option, because making a pact with the devil (Hitler or Stalin) was a bit too much to swallow.

This does not concern the subject but I would like to say that Poland had a chance to join Hitler in the fall of 1938 giving up Danzig and the Corridor to Germans. In such a case no Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact were needed and Hitler finally would attack the Soviet Union with Poland as an ally and with a silent approval of the Western democracies.
For us, Russians, it would be a great disaster, taking into account quite possible move of Japan in the Far East.