Propaganda In Fyrom's School Books (with english subtitles)

[Ricardo Reis]

+ YouTube Video

A great video about the so-called "Macedonian" issue. The Skopjan propaganda and the mistakes of Greek external policies.

[Galaico]

It is just plain ridiculous to think that the Slavic inhabitants of FYROM are the direct descendants of ancient Macedonians. As far as I know Tito renamed Macedonia because of his admiration to Alexander the Great, and all the FYROMian rewritting of history just came in the last few decades as the documentary says.

Anyone can imagine Alexander speking a language that was only brought to the Balkans hundreds of years later after his death?

However, I wouldn't deny that most FYROMians do actually have some Macedonian ancestry, mixed up with Slavic and Turko-Bulgar blood. Many of them will probably descend from Slavicied Macedonians.

The most direct descendants of the ancient Macedonians are in any case the current Hellenes from the Greek province of Macedonia, that is, modern Macedonians.

It would be interesting to see a genetic study comparing FYROMian Y-Chromosome and mtDNA haplogroups from those from Greek Macedonia.

[Monolith]

Actually, they claim to be to successors of the ancient Macedonians, and they think their language was changed due the Slavic invasion from the north.
This study describes their origin this way: "This phenomenon is explained by the genetic contribution of the people who lived in the region before the Slavic expansion"
Source: Anthropological Evidence and the Fallmerayer Thesis


This table shows differences and similarities between the populations of Greece and that of FYROM, as well as the data for neighbouring peoples.
I have also attached two Y-chromosome studies concerning Slavs, where Macedonians are studied.
frequencies.jpg

[dime]

so where was the propaganda

[Heretik]

Originally Posted by FlorentinoAriza

A great video about the so-called "Macedonian" issue. The Skopjan propaganda and the mistakes of Greek external policies.

Start a war!

[Ricardo Reis]

Originally Posted by dime

so where was the propaganda

"In the old books used in Fyrom, there was no mention of Alexander's heritage, nor to his "Macedonianism", the change came after 1941..."

[Ricardo Reis]

A stamp showing the map of Yugoslavia with the Southern province called 'Vardarska' as it was before the red partisan take over of Yugoslavia and the creation of the 'Socialist Republic of Macedonia' at the end of WW2




Artificial ethnogenosis - an ideology in the minority and its struggle to materialise


This quote from the 1950s after 5 years of Yugoslav Communist rule gives an idea of the ground still needed to be gained:
"In regard to their own national feelings, all that can safely be said is that during the last eighty years many more Slav Macedonians seem to have considered themselves Bulgarian, or closely linked to Bulgaria, than have considered themselves Serbian, or closely linked to Serbia (or Yugoslavia). Only the people of the Skoplje region, in the north west, have ever shown much tendency to regard themselves as Serbs. The feeling of being Macedonians, and nothig but Macedonians, seems to be a sentiment of fairly recent growth, and even today is not very deep-rooted."
Elisabeth Barker, "Macedonia, its place in Balkan power politics", (originally published in 1950 by the Royal Institute of International Affairs), p.10




"Since they were closely related to both Bulgars and Serbs and had, moreover, in the past been usually incorporated in either the Bulgar or Serb state, they inevitably became the object of both Bulgar and Serb aspirations and an apple of discord between these rival nationalities. As an oppressed people on an exceedingly primitive level, the Macedonian Slavs had as late as the congress of Berlin exhibited no perceptible national consciousness of their own. It was therefore impossible to foretell in what direction they would lean when their awakening came; in fact, so indeterminate was the situation that under favorable circumstances they might even develop ther own peculiar Macedonian consciousness."
[Ferdinand Schevill, "A History of the Balkans", p.432]

[Monolith]

As you can see from the stamp, Yugoslavia was divided into "Banovinas" or "Banats". Macedonia was called "Vardarska banovina", Slovenia was "Dravska", Serbia was "Dunavska" and "Drinska" etc.
Every part(Banovina) of the former country, except Croatia, was called after a major river that flowed through its territory.

[Kan Yuvigi Asparukh]

The Fyrom's school books' propaganda is not only about Alexander the Great and the Greek history. As an example the Bulgarian medieval King Samuil is also "macedonian". If he is really Macedonian, why the destroyer of his Kingdom, the greek emperor Vasilius II is known as the Bulgarian Slayer? Why the greek province on the former Samuil's land is called Bulgaria? Why Samuil's son is known as Presian Bulgarski? For me, the Fyromian history is science fiction.

[dime]

If he is really Macedonian, why the destroyer of his Kingdom, the greek emperor Vasilius II is known as the Bulgarian Slayer?

because he killed more bulgarians than macedonians

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Galaico

Tito renamed Macedonia because of his admiration to Alexander the Great, and all the FYROMian rewritting of history just came in the last few decades as the documentary says.

What the hell? Where did you read that? Present Macedonia (ex-Yugoslav republic) was named Macedonia because it was part of historical Macedonian region. The same historic region was divieded between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia (later Yugoslavia) in the Balkan wars (1912-1913).

Originally Posted by Milfiades

A stamp showing the map of Yugoslavia with the Southern province called 'Vardarska' as it was before the red partisan take over of Yugoslavia and the creation of the 'Socialist Republic of Macedonia' at the end of WW2

This stamp is from the period around 1939-1941. The Kingdom of Yugoslavia was proclaimed dictarship (6th of January Dictatorship) and the country was divided in unhistorical way. Serbia (and Yugoslavian) Macedonia didn't had any specific autonomy nor it formed any specific region. Until 1929. it was just considered as part of 'Southern Serbia'. From 1939. and the agreement Cvetoković-Maček Croats succeeded in their attempts and Serbs agreed to form Croatian autonomy from the Sava, Littoral and smaller parts of Zeta, Danube, Vrbas and Drina banovina's. During this time Macedonian Slavs were considered Serbs (before Balkan wars they were regarded as Bulgarians even by neutral POV - the Allies). After WW2 Tito and the Yugoslav Communist party form a republic from the Yugoslav (former Serbian) part of historic Macedonia and name it - Macedonia. It's that simple.

Even Bulgarians call their small part of Macedonian historic region which is today part of Bulgarian sovereign state 'Pirin Macedonia'. Greek Macedonia is also known as 'Aegan Macedonia' and former Yugoslav republic Macedonia (today sovereign state) was (and still is sometimes) refered as 'Vardar Macedonia'.

Honestly I don't see a problem here. This is like United Kingdom protesting because Republic of Ireland is using the Irish name, or maybe vice versa, the British using Northern Ireland. If you had any pragmatism you would insists on two main points:
1. Emphasizing of the name 'Republic of Macedonia'
2. Macedonian Slavs renouncing their ridiculous chauvinist claims on ancient Macedonians

This I believe would be acceptable for Slav Macedonians and Greeks would get at least most of the satisfaction. As it is now we have two sides on totally opposite sides. Especially Greek side being totally stuborn and acting stupid loosing its credibility.

Btw. a small revelation. Some nationalists (Bulgarian but mainly Serbs) often speak how it was Tito and the communists who "created the artificial Macedonian nation". Well thats funny, because in 19th and early 20th century when Serbia and Bulgaria were contesting on these regions Bulgaria was more successful and had organized churches and schools in Bulgarian, however since the after the Balkan wars most of Slavic speaking Bulgaria was handed over to Serbia, Serbs seeing they are unsuccessful in getting the Slav Macedonians to their side invented and started to promote a separate ethnic identity to diminish the Bulgarian influence. This was the supposed "Macedonian ethnicity". So you see it was the Serbs themselves who invented it.

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

What the hell? Where did you read that? Present Macedonia (ex-Yugoslav republic) was named Macedonia because it was part of historical Macedonian region. The same historic region was divieded between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia (later Yugoslavia) in the Balkan wars (1912-1913).

The problem is that people from FYROM claim to be the descendants of ancient Macedonians, something that is not true.

That region(s) you say that were divided between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were under Ottoman control, so it would be interesting to see which were the borders of Ottoman Macedonia, because I don't think most of FYROM would be part of it.

Most of FYROM was never geographically part of historical Macedonia, in fact FYROM is located in what it used to be ancient Peonia.

Here you have a map I made myself comparing the modern borders in the Balkans with ancient Macedonia (before Philipus II conquests), following Kinder's and Hilgemann's Atlas zur Weltgeschichte.



FYROM has no right to claim itself as Macedonia, nor culturally, historically, linguistically or geographically.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Galaico

The problem is that people from FYROM claim to be the descendants of ancient Macedonians, something that is not true.

It is only partially true, due the fact that they're a mix of Slavs and the indigenous populations that resided in that area.

[dime]

Originally Posted by Bardyllis

It is only partially true, due the fact that they're a mix of Slavs and the indigenous populations that resided in that area.

yes the Ancient Macedonians

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Galaico

Most of FYROM was never geographically part of historical Macedonia, in fact FYROM is located in what it used to be ancient Peonia.

It depends which time period you have in mind. The borders of Macedonia changed through history. From ancient times over the Roman times all the way from Medieval era, era under Ottoman occupation and modern times and modern Macedonian region.

I was speaking about what is today generally considered Macedonian region, as it is since late 19th century.

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Bardyllis

It is only partially true, due the fact that they're a mix of Slavs and the indigenous populations that resided in that area.

Yes, that's what I said in my first post, but that could only be applied to Southern FYROMians, the other 80% of FYROM doesn't have Macedonian blood.

If you really want to see pretty much unmixed Macedonians, that have kept their language, culture and tradition, go to Northern Greece.