Estonian capital suffers second night of violence

[Youenn]

Originally Posted by svin

I agree, small Estonian nation can't assimilate so many people. For example, 300.000 of Estonian immigrants wouldn't have great influence on Russian nation or any other big European nation, like French or Germans.

I don't think so. A comment from a "franco-portuguese" supporter in the TV at the last cup of football :

« Notre sang est portugais, nos origines sont portuguaises, on mange portuguais, on essaye de se marier avec des Portuguais, on essaye de garder les coutumes portuguaises »

"Our blood is portuguese, our origines are portuguese, we eat portuguese foods, we married between portuguese people, we try to keep the portuguese tradition."

Of course, he supported the portuguese team. I think assimilation can be acceptable but only if it's not very important. If there are metaethnic proximity, it's more easy.

Originally Posted by svin

But I don't agree with Youenn is that it is a rare thing. Ed is a nice chap as well, and so is Gottslav.

All russians that I seen on web are imperialist, except here, on Stirpes, Svin, Ed Gein and Gottslav. It's just my personal opinion.

[Leland Gaunt]

Originally Posted by Youenn

All russians that I seen on web are imperialist, except here, on Stirpes, Svin, Ed Gein and Gottslav. It's just my personal opinion.

Most of those so-called Russian "patriots" are not very civilized people. They do so much harm to both sides. I guess they lack some good Alpish/Lappid genes.

[Youenn]

Originally Posted by Ed Gein

Most of those so-called Russian "patriots" are not very civilized people. They do so much harm to both sides. I guess they lack some good Alpish/Lappid genes.

I've known "Russian skinheads will save the world !" on Stormfront, now I know "Russian Alpish/Lappid will save the world !".

[Leland Gaunt]

Originally Posted by Youenn

I've known "Russian skinheads will save the world !" on Stormfront, now I know "Russian Alpish/Lappid will save the world !".

No, I don't want to save the world. I rather create my own and hide there. To be the only Emperor of Alpo-Lappish Universe.

[Sohni]

I think many of you here have spoken well for Estonia, so I have nothing in particular to add, just the best article in English I have found: from a British newspaper The Daily telegraph:

Vladimir Putin needs a history lesson. At a parade in Red Square yesterday commemorating the end of the Second World War, the Russian president accused the Estonian government of belittling that conflict, desecrating a monument to war heroes, insulting its own people and sowing distrust between nations.

This absurd outburst was triggered by the transfer last month of the Soviet "Bronze Soldier" memorial from the centre of Tallinn to the main military cemetery.

Its removal has led to two nights of rioting, the siege of the Estonian embassy in Moscow and the closure, allegedly for repairs, of railway lines to the Baltic state.

Russia's upper house has described the Tallinn authorities as "provincial zealots of Nazism", while Sergei Ivanov, first deputy prime minister and a possible successor to Mr Putin, has called for an end to the transit of Russian goods across Estonia.

Moscow should not be surprised if its little neighbour sees the matter in a different light.

Following the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany in 1939, Stalin occupied Estonia and deported thousands of people to the Siberian gulag.

Many Estonians regarded the Wehrmacht, pushing eastwards under Operation Barbarossa in 1941, as liberators, even though that enthusiasm soon waned.

However, worse was to follow: the retreat of the Germans in 1944 brought a second wave of Red terror, and colonisation through massive Russian settlement. That occupation lasted until independence in 1991.

Homo sovieticus regards himself as the liberator of Estonia from the Nazi yoke. The Estonians view him as the brutal stifler of national self-determination for more than a generation.

The likes of Mr Putin need to recognise that their Baltic neighbour is an independent state whose prime minister, Andrus Ansip, was returned to power in March on a platform that included the removal of the "Bronze Soldier".

In his careful handling of the issue, Mr Ansip merits the wholehearted backing of his Nato and EU allies. The West must be particularly vigilant when it comes to Russian bullying of former parts of the Soviet empire.

Stand by Estonia | Dt Leaders | Opinion | Telegraph

The opinions of russians here are truly a pleasant surprise in amidst of homo sovieticus attitude presented by our local "antifascists" and the constant propaganda attacks from Russian government and their minions, like putinjugend organization Nashi, who got their fame with siege of Estonian embassy in Moscow and attacks at Estonian and Swedish ambassadors in Russia.
Thank You all who have supported Estonia in our stand against putinist Soviet Russia!

And you, serb pro-putinist: do you truly think your place is among nationalists? Do you truly think Red Empire was a blessing for the World?
If your answer is yes, then I suggest you listen better your slavic brothers here.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Sohni

...

Thank You all who have supported Estonia in our stand against putinist Soviet Russia!

I myself have much more sympathy for Estonia in this argument but I still like the policies of Putin in international affairs beyond the former Soviet Union. I think Russia is currently acting as a positive counter weight to American neocon adventurism in the Middle East and Balkans.

[Leland Gaunt]

Originally Posted by Sohni

constant propaganda attacks from Russian government and their minions

It also has a tremendous boost in Russian media. It was ridiculous how they blame Estonia while the similar monument was demolished near the Moscow a week before Tallinn riots, but I don't remeber that this fact was ever mentioned or had any impact in the news.

[Sohni]

Originally Posted by AFAS

I myself have much more sympathy for Estonia in this argument but I still like the policies of Putin in international affairs beyond the former Soviet Union. I think Russia is currently acting as a positive counter weight to American neocon adventurism in the Middle East and Balkans.

Russia is acting in hope to stir up more trouble than U.S. can handle there, thus giving free hands for New Soviet Russia to restore Soviet Empire.

Estonia was russian testing ground of EU and NATO reactions, and both were surprisingly good and supportive for us. Putin & his court find external enemies among their neighbors every month, but at some point his supporters will ask: "You promise all the time to crush our enemies and restore Soviet Union, where is the action?".

Estonian test failed, but I am afraid because of other targets that have not yet established themselves as members of NATO or EU and are in very conflicting relations with Russia now - especially Ukraine and Georgia.

Of course we too must be always ready for the time when putinists incite both Middle Eastern and Eurabian muslims to open warfare with western powers to get the chance to restore Red Empire while West is busy.

Remember - presidental elections are coming soon in Russia and it is highly unlikely Putin will give up power. Either constitution will be changed to allow him to continue as president or a war is needed to postpone elections in "special circumstances".

[Menydh]

Sohni, don't get offended if I say that I believe that you are being a little naïve when you say things like "both [EU and NATO] were surprisingly good and supportive for us".

What in my opinion is happening is that the countries of the former Soviet Union are being used as pieces in a board game of geostrategy and world power. NATO is not Europe. It is not the European Union either. Rather, the European countries in NATO are also being pieces of this game.

The expansion of NATO that the US has taken to the borders of Russia would be considered as overtly hostile by any country with enough power to raise its voice in front of the US. Not just Russia.

Now, I'm not saying that this justifies any intervention of Russia in Estonia. But at the same time, I must wonder what I would do if I was in their place. It is not only Estonia. It is also Ukraine, the Caucasus region, Afghanistan.

One should not forget that the existance of NATO after the fall of Communism has been put into question in Europe in numerous occasions, as it has been proposed the creation of a Euroarmy independent from the influence of the US. A dismantling of NATO would signify a big loss of dependence of Europe from America. So there is a compelling need to give NATO a reason for being.

Originally Posted by Sohni

Of course we too must be always ready for the time when putinists incite both Middle Eastern and Eurabian muslims to open warfare with western powers to get the chance to restore Red Empire while West is busy.

Putin doesn't have that kind of influence over Muslims, neither in Europe nor in the Middle East. Further, with the big numbers of Muslims already inside Russia and the country bordering with Muslims states, it would not be in the interest of Russia to unleash Islam over Europe.

Remember - presidental elections are coming soon in Russia and it is highly unlikely Putin will give up power. Either constitution will be changed to allow him to continue as president or a war is needed to postpone elections in "special circumstances".

I won't comment on this. I must admit that it takes me off side.

[Sohni]

Originally Posted by Ed Gein

It also has a tremendous boost in Russian media. It was ridiculous how they blame Estonia while the similar monument was demolished near the Moscow a week before Tallinn riots, but I don't remeber that this fact was ever mentioned or had any impact in the news.

World War II monuments destroyed in Russia:

January/February 2007 - Stavropol
April 2007 - Khimki
April 2007 - Petersburg
May 2007 - Sochi planning to dismantle WW2 monument....


And relocation of bronze soldier in Estonia is suddenly such a shock?

It was moved from near trolley stop to military cemetary, remains of soviet soldiers were taken to peaceful resting place instead of having people walk on them, like it was for decades.
Is this "fascism"?

[Sohni]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Sohni, don't get offended if I say that I believe that you are being a little naïve when you say things like "both [EU and NATO] were surprisingly good and supportive for us".

By "surprisingly" I meant that it we got lots of international attention and quite strict announcements by both EU and NATO towards Russia. We have always counted on Molotov-Ribbentrop pact to repeat and prepared to fight alone and die for Fatherland, but it was nice to see someone actually cares.

Russian threat is the point why Estonia, just as whole ex-soviet and ex-Warsaw-pact part of Europe is trying to get into those alliances, to get some confidence and some friends for the time when wannabe-USSR should rise again.

The expansion of NATO that the US has taken to the borders of Russia would be considered as overtly hostile by any country with enough power to raise its voice in front of the US. Not just Russia.

Now, I'm not saying that this justifies any intervention of Russia in Estonia. But at the same time, I must wonder what I would do if I was in their place. It is not only Estonia. It is also Ukraine, the Caucasus region, Afghanistan.

Read your own words I have quoted in bold: you ARE justifying intervention of Russia.

We are not influence zone of Russia, PERIOD. And I think Russia got the hint...

One should not forget that the existance of NATO after the fall of Communism has been put into question in Europe in numerous occasions, as it has been proposed the creation of a Euroarmy independent from the influence of the US. A dismantling of NATO would signify a big loss of dependence of Europe from America. So there is a compelling need to give NATO a reason for being.

NATO is necessary, just as U.S. presence. Simply because Western European countries would sell Eastern European countries one by one just to keep Soviet Russia calm, while Americans enjoy their victory in Cold War and are determined to keep their position as a victor. They don't give much crap about us, small countries, but they certainly don't want Soviet Union to rise again - THAT makes us allies.
Enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Putin doesn't have that kind of influence over Muslims, neither in Europe nor in the Middle East.

Agreed, he doesn't have. But all his recent moves in Iran and Palestine show that he wants to have.

Further, with the big numbers of Muslims already inside Russia and the country bordering with Muslims states, it would not be in the interest of Russia to unleash Islam over Europe.

With islamic Central Asian countries already playing by Putin's rules, Chechnya massacred.... What muslim unrest would you expect for Putinist Soviet Russia?

[svin]

I agree that small nations want to be part of some alliances to feel protected. But don't forget that there can be point, where such alliance would become another occupation. Even golden cage is still a cage.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Sohni

NATO is necessary, just as U.S. presence. Simply because Western European countries would sell Eastern European countries one by one just to keep Soviet Russia calm, while Americans enjoy their victory in Cold War and are determined to keep their position as a victor. They don't give much crap about us, small countries, but they certainly don't want Soviet Union to rise again - THAT makes us allies.
Enemy of my enemy is my friend.

NATO made sense during the Cold War but has mutated into something different. It is now a tool of Americans who could not care less what happens to our European nations. Don't forget that the American foreign policy establishment is largely staffed by people who hold a special hatred for Europe; especially the nations who fought on the Axis side in WW2.

Originally Posted by Sohni

Agreed, he doesn't have. But all his recent moves in Iran and Palestine show that he wants to have.

What has Putin done in the Middle East that concerns you?

[svin]

I don't think so. A comment from a "franco-portuguese" supporter in the TV at the last cup of football :

« Notre sang est portugais, nos origines sont portuguaises, on mange portuguais, on essaye de se marier avec des Portuguais, on essaye de garder les coutumes portuguaises »

Of course, not everyone integrates. But I know a lot of Russians with Baltic roots, for example, or Polish, or Finnish, or German. They consider themselves Russians. Even our greatest poet Lermontov was of Scottish origin.

As I've said, for big nation it's not a big deal, I would accept any European living in Russia who wants to integrate in our society. But in limited numbers. That means that I don't advocate mass immigration.