Ulster Loyalists: A Tree of Hatred Planted in the Heart of Ireland

[Spartadux]

So dear Yago let's keep the topic beyond your irony: tell me a solution for this problem, do you have a kind of or do you just want the continuing of an idiotic and fiercely destructive violence in Ulster?
I see that after some decades in that land the people hasn't got any benefit, nor catholic neather protestant and that's the way it is; so a logical way to discuss should consider the idea of a wrong attitude to make civil wars.
I don't know you and your enviroment but i know that european nationalists consider a really bad and counter revolucionary idea and attitude the civil war within Europe and its folks and nowadays we need unity among us and not violence for religious matters even if you think religions would be a matter for holding guns and other weaponry in order to kill people who is living where you live since centuries.
Do you have any single and logical idea or ideals for suggesting that? I don't see it at all and don't keep ahead the point of marxism in a plot against the Church because that's not my point at all whatever you consider about what i say and whatever consideration you are, freely, doing about my view about religion.
In Italy we are loaded by religion and vatican's power and there is not a single time where VAtican supported nationalism in Italy at the beginning of national unification until istitutional building during the Fascist Regime.
It has never been a support of Italian nationalism and neofascism by Vatican and right now one of the main obstacle for the government for a stronger policy towards immigrants is the Vatican itself.
So don't teach me what's Catholic Church because i chew about it since i was born.
If we go back to ethnic cleansing by Unionists towards catholics in Ulster...well where should i admitted or supported or simply justified such kind of crimes?
The only thing i know is that i meet irish people as tourists in Italy and they told me often that they don't feel anymore the issue of Ulster and that Ulster now is getting to be in peace and cooperation.
I hope so because we need unity among religions and i don't consider an european with another religion as different by me: it's ethnically different and i agree but on a common basis of many elements.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Spartadux

In Italy we are loaded by religion and vatican's power and there is not a single time where VAtican supported nationalism in Italy at the beginning of national unification until istitutional building during the Fascist Regime.
It has never been a support of Italian nationalism and neofascism by Vatican and right now one of the main obstacle for the government for a stronger policy towards immigrants is the Vatican itself.
So don't teach me what's Catholic Church because i chew about it since i was born.

This must be one of the cheapest arguments that I've read lately.

You are pretending that the invasion of Southern Italy by Piemontese troops and the Carbonarian unification of the Italian Peninsula has anything to do with any concept of nation. That's a lie.

The Church was on the side of those whose identity and traditions were being abused by the foreign, masonic and multiculturalistic aggression of Garibaldi.

There is no concept of nation in what you try to pass as nationalism. Not more than what the Soviet Union or the European Union are nations. Or Great Britain, which is closer to the case in point.

You may hope to trick others with that cheap story. But I am one who has worked in an Italian environment and lived very close to Italians from all parts of Italy: northwest, northeast, central and the various south. Many of my closest friends are Romans, and they are all political. Italian is one language which I feel comfortable and confident to read from it. You can't hope to trick me with cheap stories about Italy.

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Milesian

The Germans have generally been rather supportive - 20,000 rifles landed by U-Boat at the Banna Strand being an example. Then again, I think they also landed an arms shipment for the Unionists as well at one point.
A cynical view might be simply they wished to destabilise things in order to cause the British a headache during war-time. I wouldn't expect anything else in reality. My enemy's enemy and all that

True, but I wasn't referring to WW2.

The Irish and Ireland are generally liked by Germans - contrary to the English. Of course this is a very superficial (and one-sided) fondness which doesn't care about the Irish/English conflict or Ireland's history and rather focuses on Irish music, Irish pubs, Guinness and Ireland as a nice holiday destination.
The claim there would be some "Germanic bond" which makes Germans sympathise with the English is nonsense though. More likely the opposite is true.

[Spartadux]

"That's a lie"...are you sure? Did the Holy Ghost suggest you in so strong way?
There is an historical debath about it and i accept many criticism on Italian Reunification process but not a single possibility to take part for the Catholic Church in political way.
If some makes so he's not a nationalist but a Reactionary bigot and not a fascist, at least in Italy in the area on nationalpopular activism.
We are nationalists and we agree that there's not political possibility without a national reunification and a indipendence of the Nation by all powers from abroad and Vatican is a foreign state made by a religion which is coming from Medium East as well like Judaism and Islam.
Vatican never considered itself italian and it has been on of the pilars of the antifascist sectarian rebellion during the war.I post this for history and not for saying bad of a personal interpretation on religion which is stricly personal and not binding other militants.
In Vatican the political man Alcide De Gasperi of Christian Democrats used to be a refugee with a diplomatic passport and used to organize, as a chief of italian Resistence, the bombings on the capital in order to weak the militar and civil asset of defence of Rome, this was happenig during the last war.
Vatican has a long history of calling foreigners in Italy when someone tried to have a national Realm or an unified state which was on the aim to erase this territorial clerical power.
They called even Frenches of the liberalmasonic Napoleone III for fighting Garibaldi and the Repubblica Romana patriots.
You maybe don't know but the monument for the patriots who fought dead with Garibaldi have been done by Mussolini as well as the Monument of Repubblica Romana and the burial of Anita Garibaldi.

IN Spain you have a strong catholic tradition but an indipendent policy and that's why you can be confortable in supporting the Pope, even Carlo V was catholic and really religious and honest in all sides of his life but when the Pope made the tricks he sent him a nice Army of german mercenaries in order to give a big knock out to the arrogance of the Church which wanted to do politics on damage to the Spanish Empire.
And this was good because the center of political power must be in "Imperium", based on the figure of the Emperor or the State.

If you want to have other references go on index.html , the main forum of rightwing and fascist militants and go checking there.

I don't trick anyone, i'm just saying what i think about on the basement of my political experience, i point out also that you haven't answered at all about my criticism on Ulster's problem and its civil war.
Maybe because i'm not a theologist like you.

[Yago]

With respect to Northern Ireland (Ulster is an Irish province most of which is occupied by a foreign state who has planted a group of colonisers), the ongoing conflict is tragic indeed. But so was tragic the Reconquista in Spain and, even if the majority of so-called Moors were racially Iberians converted to Islam, the ethnic character and identity of the Spaniards had already defined itself as essentially Catholic and through their conversion to Islam they had detached themselves from it.

Your argument that any part of a nation's ethnic identity and tradition should be surrendered in exchange for submission is shameful. It may fit your byzantinic identity character. Fine. But it must stop there where it apparently belongs.

Your idea of "peace" we call it the "peace of the graveyards".

[Spartadux]

Originally Posted by Yago

Your argument that any part of a nation's ethnic identity and tradition should be surrendered in exchange for submission is shameful. It may fit your byzantinic identity character. Fine. But it must stop there where it apparently belongs.

Your idea of "peace" we call it the "peace of the graveyards".

If i support the idea of a submission i agree, i support another idea, the idea of having an agreement, a treaty or a pact for developing again the area and cooperate for public welfare and common ealth.
I cannot think that many protestant must go away after centuries, they must live togheter with catholics and cooperate without internal wars or violences.
That's a main point.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

True, but I wasn't referring to WW2.

The Irish and Ireland are generally liked by Germans - contrary to the English. Of course this is a very superficial (and one-sided) fondness which doesn't care about the Irish/English conflict or Ireland's history and rather focuses on Irish music, Irish pubs, Guinness and Ireland as a nice holiday destination.

Well, those are good enough reasons I guess

I think part of Ireland's good image, apart from the music, drink and culture, is that it has always been a rather parochial nation that's tended to mind it's own affairs. It's a country that's never been to war with anyone else since pre-history, other than the one that invaded it.
In any case, Ireland has always prefered to interalise it's conflict and knock the living daylights out of each other rather than foreigners.
Leaving other people alone tends to get you a good rep, just as the oppsoite gets you a bad one.

The claim there would be some "Germanic bond" which makes Germans sympathise with the English is nonsense though. More likely the opposite is true.

Yes, I agree. Germanic brotherhood doesn't really exist outside of internet fora. I know that if there is an English stereotype of the Germans, it's not a very positive one. I'm sure two World Wars has influenced this to some degree as well. The Royal Family had to change their name from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to the more English sounding Windsor, for starters.
And long before America thought to rename French Fries as Freedom Fries, the English had renamed the German Shepherd breed of dog to the more euphemistic Alsatian
Way ahead of their time, obviously

[Faran]

Originally Posted by Spartadux

not a single possibility to take part for the Catholic Church in political way

The Catholic Church is against the division of Italy and Northern separatism/Padanian independentism.

If some makes so he's not a nationalist but a Reactionary bigot and not a fascist

Reactionary isn't a disqualifying adjective as you imply, nor the opposite of fascist.
Of course it is written nowhere that Fascism is the best thing in the world.

indipendence of the Nation by all powers from abroad and Vatican is a foreign state made by a religion

You know very well Mussolini's stance on Catholicism and his pacts with the Vatican. He made the Vatican into what it is today.

which is coming from Medium East as well like Judaism and Islam

Many other things come from the Middle East, from food to cultural items to people. But once all this has been assimilated and in many cases reinvented by people on the European continent, that's not Middle-Eastern anymore.
Do you want me to make examples?

Apart from the two facts that ancient Middle-East was very different from today's one and that Fascism isn't necessarily a Middle-East free doctrine.

In Vatican the political man Alcide De Gasperi of Christian Democrats used to be a refugee with a diplomatic passport and used to organize, as a chief of italian Resistence, the bombings on the capital in order to weak the militar and civil asset of defence of Rome, this was happenig during the last war.

So you preferred the German occupation.
You are right, it was much better to be a worthless puppet of a foreign power, which is what you say Italy needs to get rid of to be free and united.
That's a contradiction and a big one.

Vatican has a long history of calling foreigners in Italy when someone tried to have a national Realm or an unified state which was on the aim to erase this territorial clerical power.

Who first called for the help of foreign powers against another Italian state, virtually putting an end to Italian freedom was Ludovico Il Moro, duke of Milan.

They called even Frenches of the liberalmasonic Napoleone III for fighting Garibaldi and the Repubblica Romana patriots.

Right... because Garibaldi had no links with freemasonry...

And this was good because the center of political power must be in "Imperium", based on the figure of the Emperor or the State.

Again, do you think the Holy Roman (=kind of German) Empire was the one that had to rule in Italy? A foreign power?

I don't trick anyone, i'm just saying what i think about on the basement of my political experience

I think you have been influenced by the teachings of our public schools in the South; all your dogmas (Italy was never united and powerful because of the Church, the Church has ruined Italy, Italy is the direct heir of Rome, to name a few) are the ones spread by many Southern Fascist teachers, admirers of Giovanni Gentile.

It is your opinion and you don't need legitimation by anyone, of course; but the fact that Fascism has ultimately failed (Italy isn't Romanized), been eradicated (at least in the Parliament), replaced by new Right movements (Northern League) or converted (Fini) could make one think that, after all, meridionalism, Fascist nationalism and other movements you might support are dying out.

The course of their disgrace doesn't belong to this thread and I won't expand.

With regard to the Ulster situation, I don't think that giving up your religion is the way to go. Sacrificing your identity and thinking to temporarily submit to fight a foreign invasion is something that was very costly for those who did so
an example: the Delian League.

By the way, did you ever lost family members to a conflict against someone?
Because that's what many good Irish experienced in Ulster, and you are telling them to give up what they are and be good with the Protestants, so we can kick Africans out of all Europe... or right, develop economically.
I thought Fascist weren't plutocratic

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Spartadux

"That's a lie"...are you sure? Did the Holy Ghost suggest you in so strong way?

How is this an argument in any way? how does it address my arguments?

I beg you to keep your bazaar merchant style to your own. It is not appreciated.

There is an historical debath about it and i accept many criticism on Italian Reunification process

"Re-unification"? Even in the face of facts, you can't be honest can you?

If some makes so he's not a nationalist but a Reactionary bigot and not a fascist, at least in Italy in the area on nationalpopular activism.

Try to rephrase that to make sense. As it is now, it makes no sense.

We are nationalists and we agree that there's not political possibility without a national reunification and a indipendence of the Nation by all powers from abroad and Vatican is a foreign state made by a religion which is coming from Medium East as well like Judaism and Islam.

The nature of Catholicism has been discussed ad nauseam in these forums, and it has been left clear that it is precisely a radical departure from any Middle Eastern religion, and that it also contains the essence of European identity and tradition.

You are an urchin.

Vatican has a long history of calling foreigners in Italy when someone tried to have a national Realm or an unified state which was on the aim to erase this territorial clerical power. They called even Frenches of the liberalmasonic Napoleone III for fighting Garibaldi and the Repubblica Romana patriots.
You maybe don't know but the monument for the patriots who fought dead with Garibaldi have been done by Mussolini as well as the Monument of Repubblica Romana and the burial of Anita Garibaldi.

The Vatican defended itself against foreign interventions, be them French or Spanish.....or Piedmontese.

The Pontificial States predate by hundred of years the Jacobine Italian Republic, which is the succession of the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia.



It is my belief that these states should be reorganised (Lazio, Umbria, Marche, Romagna) together with the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, to stop them being bled by southerners and northerners alike. That no foreigner (certainly no German, Pole or other) with no full allegiance to Rome should sit in the Throne of Rome. Rome is above the nations and should have never been reduced to the administrative status of a constructed state of masonic origins.

IN Spain you have a strong catholic tradition [...]

In Spain the Catholic tradition has been badly wounded both by the secularist (liberal/socialist) lot and by a protestantised church. As a result we have become a country of degenerates just as those in the north from where this secularism and protestantisation derived. Well before Spain, France followed into these steps.

What little is left of our spiritual tradition and identity, which is from where we can regain our strength, the nutcases like you are on a fanatic jihad to destroy it through moronic defamation.

If you want to have other references go on index.html , the main forum of rightwing and fascist militants and go checking there.

You are much mislead about me if you believe that I need to go there.

I don't trick anyone

True that you don't succeed. But you do try.

i point out also that you haven't answered at all about my criticism on Ulster's problem and its civil war.

Read on posts above. By the way, yours is no criticism but an unashamed proposal of submision to the British-designed division of the Irish nation.

Maybe because i'm not a theologist like you.

Like I said at the start of this post, you are a bazaar money-grubber with no sense of style nor decency.

[Zyklop]

@Milesian

Maybe you know the German "Irish folk"-band Fiddler's Green? Of course it's highly pretentious for a foreign band playing Irish folk but it serves as an example of how popular Irish music is over here.

+ YouTube Video

Originally Posted by Milesian

Yes, I agree. Germanic brotherhood doesn't really exist outside of internet fora.

Only one actually.

I know that if there is an English stereotype of the Germans, it's not a very positive one. I'm sure two World Wars has influenced this to some degree as well.

I'm sure it's actually much older than that and has to do with the British habit of keeping down any continental power that may threaten them in one way or the other. The mainstream German animosity towards them nowadays is nothing more than football rivalism though.

[Benen an ynys]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

Only one actually.I'm sure it's actually much older than that and has to do with the British habit of keeping down any continental power that may threaten them in one way or the other.

Reminds me of how my Grandmam would speak of "continentals" as though the label were a dirty word. I think they were stereotyped as immoral and dangerously strange from way back.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

@Milesian

Maybe you know the German "Irish folk"-band Fiddler's Green? Of course it's highly pretentious for a foreign band playing Irish folk but it serves as an example of how popular Irish music is over here.

Not pretentious at all. I'm amazed at time the number of folk bands playing Irish music, from Germans to Serbians to Greeks.

Imitiation is the sincerest form of flattery

Only one actually.I'm sure it's actually much older than that and has to do with the British habit of keeping down any continental power that may threaten them in one way or the other. The mainstream German animosity towards them nowadays is nothing more than football rivalism though.

I suspect that is actually the truth of the matter, yes.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Benen an ynys

Reminds me of how my Grandmam would speak of "continentals" as though the label were a dirty word. I think they were stereotyped as immoral and dangerously strange from way back.

John Bull vs Johnny Foreigner

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

I'm sure it's actually much older than that and has to do with the British habit of keeping down any continental power that may threaten them in one way or the other.

I have to admit that this is a point where I –exceptionally– agree with the Brits.

Don't get offended but it is no secret that Germany has –since its creation as a nation, in the 19th century– envied the imperial history of other countries and looked forward to expand itself as an imperial power. The very nature of Germans made the objects for this expansionism an unadventurous one, more or less limited to the lands and peoples surrounding the German states. Its character also being democratic, as opposed to aristocratic. Which means that it has looked forward to expand through a mixed military and migration policies. It is, after all, in the myth of Germany itself. I should also point here that the character of these democratic expansionisms are of a despotic nature. As is democratic, by definition.

So far, the expansion of German peoples had been limited to providing a labour colonial populace mainly to the British Empire, and to a lesser extent to the Spanish Empire.

This didn't stop with the defeat of Germany in the Second World War. There are three forces that have been pushing the agenda of the European Union. One of these forces is the attempt to recreate a modern Holy Roman Empire of the Germans (unholy and un-roman as it is) through the European Union. Something that's been pursued from the Mitteleuropa to the Paneuropa, with German National Socialism being a partly and badly assimilated hiatus.

As if this was not enough, it sits in Rome today too.

[Brian Foley]

Originally Posted by Milesian

Not pretentious at all. I'm amazed at time the number of folk bands playing Irish music, from Germans to Serbians to Greeks.

I dont find it pretentious at all, have you heard their folk music

[Brian Foley]

Originally Posted by Yago

Which means that it has looked forward to expand through a mixed military and migration policies. It is, after all, in the myth of Germany itself.

Ost Politik, Germany could only ever be a Central European power, her position gave Germany a lack of an open Ocean and surrounded by some formidable adversaries namely France and Russia.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by BrianFoley

I dont find it pretentious at all, have you heard their folk music

You don't like?

[Brian Foley]

Originally Posted by Milesian

You don't like?

I meant German folk music........

[Yago]

Germany is not a landlocked country. But as a speculation, it might point to a secondary role of importance of Northern Germans in the making of the German character, versus Eastern and South(eastern) Germans.

[Spartadux]

The Catholic Church is against the division of Italy and Northern separatism/Padanian independentism.

I was talking about history not about recent chronicles, nowadays the Church is one of the warrants of present Republic and they don't agree with any kind of revolutionary theory, including a separatist one. But many leghisti are catholic militants in order to remember the golden age in which Italy was a group of mini-states without any political influence if not the marvelous prospective of being ruled by the pimp of the age (Spain, UK, France,Germany, etc)

Of course it is written nowhere that Fascism is the best thing in the world.

If you are a fascist you refer to FAscism as a model, not the best possible in the world because we aren't in a Paradise but in a material world where errors are possible and very common. No need to say that i'm not a fanatic and i can accept sources of other ideas but each has a basement of his proper ideal and historical example and i retain Fascism as the main of modern Italy. Fascism as continuation of Roman Tradition which prevides Italy as a unite subject and Rome as capital for its holy tradition which comes from August and Pax Deorum and Pietas and not by an external religion as the Catholic religion even if it's the main religion right now (not for much time yet, nowadays they must take negroes and asians for filling ranks of priesthood)

You know very well Mussolini's stance on Catholicism and his pacts with the Vatican. He made the Vatican into what it is today.

It was a fine operation of poitical engineering but it failed because the Church didn't come to the Nation but worked againt public affairs as always keeping contacts with Partizans and antifascist "stay behind operations" including comunists and socialists. Mussolini was in good faith but the time said he made a mistake.

Many other things come from the Middle East, from food to cultural items to people.
Do you want me to make examples?

Pizza-kebab, i like it and i eat it, that's to say i'm not so phobic about ME but if i refer to spiritual and traditional background of Italy i support and suggest "autarchia", if i refer to italic tradition and spirituality.

So you preferred the German occupation.

No, i don't but i support the faith of being allied with someone from the beginning to the end rather than being allied with Germany for, later, being allied with USSR plus USA and others. Maybe you are ignoring that RSI Army was done for taking back Italy as a sovereign nation with Italian flag and an indipendent Army. It was done with many difficulties and fighting with Germans (read Giorgio Pisanò's chronicles) but the aim was indipendence and continuing the war of defence against USA and UK armies on our territory and fighting partizans. That fits if you comes from the nationalrevolutionary world in Italy, if you comes from elsewhere i can understand that you like 25th of April fest and the Armistice.
And i say this as a comrade of Italy not because i'm a kind of neonazi who wants Hitlerism on all europe, this is not my case.

virtually putting an end to Italian freedom was Ludovico Il Moro, duke of Milan.

He wasn't a Pope, he was a duke and many nobles of that age tires to unify Italy, i support this whatever religion they were.

Right... because Garibaldi had no links with freemasonry...

It's not your case but Gabriele Adinolfi, the main italian writer of Neofascist revolutionary area, said that the criticism about Garibaldi are "au pair" with the racial inferiority complex of who makes criticism. I think he is right.

Again, do you think the Holy Roman (=kind of German) Empire was the one that had to rule in Italy? A foreign power?

It wasn't the proper form of Empire for Italy but in a way it keeps the focus on roman tradition and Rome's spiritual history, in that case the Church was important but not on political way, just as a symbol and this is a "ghibellino" possibility.

I think you have been influenced by the teachings of our public schools in the South; all your dogmas (Italy was never united and powerful because of the Church, the Church has ruined Italy, Italy is the direct heir of Rome, to name a few) are the ones spread by many Southern Fascist teachers, admirers of Giovanni Gentile.

If you talk about Gentile you refer to a lightful mind of Italy and to some who even antifascist rethoric cannot put in the waste can of the "evil" refering to Fascism.
It's not a case that Gentile was absolutely contrary to Vatican's pact with Mussolini; Gentile like Evola like Arturo Reghini and many fascists as Pavolini, Berto Ricci, Ettore Muti etc...

The course of their disgrace doesn't belong to this thread and I won't expand.

In Italy neofascism is in good ealth, political movements doesn't work but the ideas of a revision about Fascism is spreading and the Casa Pound Movement is working very well without needing to parties and its puppets.
History is long yet...

With regard to the Ulster situation, I don't think that giving up your religion is the way to go. Sacrificing your identity and thinking to temporarily submit to fight a foreign invasion is something that was very costly for those who did so
an example: the Delian League.

I don't know where i said this, i said only that religion can be a spiritual sign of identity but not a model of civil war for spreading european blood and making crimes against others, expecially if the others are living side by side since centuries. I don't think that now a war between celts and anglosaxons is clever and productive, we must stand togheter for the salvation of Europe and our folks not for some squaremiles more. Italy had Great Britain as enemy in many occasions and Germany as enemy in other occasions, but we must think to future and trying to solve those problems in different way; many irish peoples don't want war anymore,at least not a war with a neighbour, because they realized that this civil war it's a reciprocal destruction. This isn't surrender or giving up its identity or allowig a colonization, absolutely not, i'm talking about solution not about continuing injustice against irish people in Ulster.
By the way, did you ever lost family members to a conflict against someone?
I'm not plutocratic but i don't think that hobbit's village defence is clever when a huge wave of one hundred millions of afro-maghrebi and asiatic immigrants are coming continously among us.
If we go ahead on that way in Ulster there will be something like Londonistan and Eurabia, something we are experiencing elsewhere, and at the time the factionism between celts and anglosaxons will be ridicolous.