Stirpes  

Go Back   Stirpes > Political & Economical Studies > Politics > Ethnopolitics

Ethnopolitics Articles and texts on politics derived from ethnic conflicts and policies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)     Quote this post in a PM
Old Friday, July 4th, 2008
Sohni's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Last Online: 16 Minutes Ago 20:46
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Estonia
Posts: 79
Sohni is noble of speech.Sohni is noble of speech.
Default Estonia, Russia Clash on the Future of Finno-Ugric Peoples

Quote:
Estonian and Russian officials clashed over the weekend about the fate of the numerically small but politically sensitive Finno-Ugric nations in the Russian Federation, an exchange “Gazeta” said was the first “international scandal” in Dmitry Medvedev’s presidency and one that points to more problems ahead for these officials and their peoples.

In the course of the World Finno-Ugric Congress, Medvedev met with the presidents of Estonia, Finland and Hungary, the three independent Finno-Ugric states. His meetings with the leaders of Finland and Hungary reportedly went well, but his session with Estonia’s president Toomas Hendrik Ilves clearly did not.


Medvedev and Ilves

Medvedev suggested that the two discuss “the remarkable number of problems” in the relations between Russia and Estonia, to which Ilves responded, speaking English rather than Estonian, that it would be a good thing if “the public rhetoric” surrounding their bilateral ties were to be dialed back.

But while the conversation between Medvedev and Ilves may have been somewhat tense, the problems really began with the remarks Ilves made after that session and with speeches delivered by others to the plenary sessions of the congress as well as with the comments officials and scholars offered about both sets of remarks.

In his speech, Ilves noted that only three of the 24 Finno-Ugric peoples had achieved independent statehood, something he implied that others should hope for even if the current prospects seem bleak: “Freedom and democracy were our choice 150 years ago when even poets did not yet dream about state independence,” he said. “As soon as you get a taste of freedom,” the Estonian leader continued, “you will understand that this is a question of survival, without which it is impossible to operate.”

Not surprisingly, given the less than warm relations between Moscow and Tallinn – more than one Russian commentator today noted that when there are general problems in a relationship, almost anything can be the occasion for a conflict – many of the delegates from the Russian Federation responded very negatively to the Estonian president’s statement.

Representatives of the Khanty-Mansiisk Autonomous District, for example, told Russian journalists in widely quoted remarks that they were surprised by Ilves’ remarks and that they could not imagine how they would cope “without Russia.”

But the strongest attack against Ilves came from Konstantin Kosachev, the chairman of the international affairs committee of the Duma and a frequent critic of the policies of the Baltic countries. “I consider,” he told journalists, “that an attempt has again been made to politicize the Finno-Ugric process,” an action that he said was “extremely incorrect” at such a conclave.

He said that albeit “in a much camouflaged form,” Ilves had issued “certain appeals to the Finno-Ugric peoples of Russia to think about their own self-determination,” appeals that had left him angry and disappointed because he suggested it showed that “Estonia in the person of its president cannot see the forest for the trees.”

Then, when he delivered his speech to the congress, Kosachev expanded on these remarks. “One should not resolve problems by trying to sharpen ethnic conflicts,” he insisted, especially in the Russian Federation where “we have no problems with the survival and good neighborly relations of people of the most varied nationalities.”

In response to those words, the Estonian delegation including President Ilves stood up and left the hall. The audience applauded, according to Kosachev because they did not approve what the Estonians were doing but far more likely because so many of them, who have been and remain victims of Moscow’s policies, did.

Estonian officials were unanimous in saying that the Estonian delegation had done the right thing, standing up for their fellow Finno-Ugric nations and refusing to sit still for what they and Finnish President Tarja Halonen said was Kosachev’s tendentious account of the state of Finno-Ugric life in Russia.

But Russians were outraged. “Nezavisimaya gazeta” today offered the observations of three Moscow commentators. Valery Tishkov, the director of the Institute of Ethnology and Anthropology, dismissed the very idea of any “commonality of a Finno-Ugric world” – “at least from the political point of view. It is “one thing” in Hungary, Finland and Estonia, “where these peoples are the titular” nationalities. “It is an entirely different thing in Russia where they are minorities” and where they are “not in such a catastrophic situation as some want to suggest.” Consequently, urging them to seek their own state is “a cover form of separatism.” Tishkov who has often reacted angrily in the past to concern in Europe and more generally about the fate of the Finno-Ugric peoples of Russia, insisted that the government in Tallinn “would not permit a Russian or small Finno-Ugric minority in Estonia to define itself in this way.”

Konstantin Voronov, a senior researcher at the Institute of World Economy and International Relations (IMEMO) in Moscow, was equally dismissive, saying that the Finno-Ugric issue was a “’sleeping’ problem, which “our Estonian partners want to politicize,” despite Moscow’s willingness to allow minorities autonomy as in Tatarstan and Chechnya.

And Dmitry Suslov, a researcher at the Council for Foreign and Defense Policy, summed up what Medvedev, Kosachev and all the others on the Russian side almost certainly feel. “This scandal cannot radically affect Russian-Estonian relations because today they are not in the best condition” given, among other things, last year’s dispute over the Bronze Soldier.

UPDATE for July 1: Russian efforts to change the rules under which the International Consultation Committee of Finno-Ugric Peoples operates between congresses failed, when the congress itself voted down a Medvedev-backed plan to shift the headquarters of that committee from Helsinki to the Russian Federation. Backers of the plan included the delegations from Mordovia and Mari El, whose members, one Finno-Ugric site, said are officers in the Russian special services.
Estonia, Russia Clash on the Future of Finno-Ugric Peoples

* Estonian translation was not arranged, Estonian side was notified about it too late to bring translators from Estonia. Later pro-Kremlin media blamed T.H.Ilves in "insulting" the Congress by preferring English to his native language.

* The true nationalist activists of Finno-Ugrics of Russia were kept out of delegations and replaced with many clearly pro-putinist people controlled by security services.

* "Freedom and democracy" were such strong words that enraged media and Kremlin. All the Estonian-bashing that followed, clearly shows how good the situation with freedom and democracy truly is in Russia.

* The gifts Estonian delegation gave to the representatives of Finno-Ugrics of Russia, were confiscated. Books were considered especially dangerous. A man who received "Forest Brothers" by Mart Laar, became very serious and quietly said: "Will I get arrested now for owning it...?".

* Russia tried to move headquarters of Finno-Ugric Committee from Helsinki to Russia - clearly a move to control interaction and activity of Finno-Ugric nations.


Is that the famous russian hospitality? Invite a guest so you could spit into his face?
__________________




Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)     Quote this post in a PM
Old Friday, July 4th, 2008
Senior Moderator
 
Last Online: 4 Hours Ago 16:22
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,761
Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.
Default Re: Estonia, Russia Clash on the Future of Finno-Ugric Peoples

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohni View Post
Estonian translation was not arranged, Estonian side was notified about it too late to bring translators from Estonia.
Were translations to all other Finno-Ugric languages arranged?
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)     Quote this post in a PM
Old Friday, July 4th, 2008
Sohni's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Last Online: 16 Minutes Ago 20:46
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Estonia
Posts: 79
Sohni is noble of speech.Sohni is noble of speech.
Default Re: Estonia, Russia Clash on the Future of Finno-Ugric Peoples

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marulus View Post
Were translations to all other Finno-Ugric languages arranged?
Finns and Hungarians could give speeches in their own languages. I'm not sure about Finno-Ugrics of Russia, did they have to speak in russian or could use native languages.

Anyway, 6th Congress will be in Hungary. That will mean no unnecessary political tension and arrangement problems.
__________________




Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)     Quote this post in a PM
Old Monday, July 7th, 2008
Sohni's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Last Online: 16 Minutes Ago 20:46
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Estonia
Posts: 79
Sohni is noble of speech.Sohni is noble of speech.
Default Re: Estonia, Russia Clash on the Future of Finno-Ugric Peoples

More news in English about the Congress and conflicts around it: http://www.fennougria.ee/?id=12964
__________________




Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)     Quote this post in a PM
Old Monday, July 7th, 2008
Senior Moderator
 
Last Online: 4 Hours Ago 16:22
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,761
Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.
Default Re: Estonia, Russia Clash on the Future of Finno-Ugric Peoples

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohni View Post
Anyway, 6th Congress will be in Hungary. That will mean no unnecessary political tension and arrangement problems.
When?
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)     Quote this post in a PM
Old Monday, July 7th, 2008
Menydh's Avatar
Southern Charm,
Western Passion
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 16,184
Menydh is a deity.Menydh is a deity.Menydh is a deity.Menydh is a deity.Menydh is a deity.Menydh is a deity.Menydh is a deity.Menydh is a deity.Menydh is a deity.Menydh is a deity.Menydh is a deity.
Default Re: Estonia, Russia Clash on the Future of Finno-Ugric Peoples

Quote:
Valery Tishkov, the director of the Institute of Ethnology and Anthropology, dismissed the very idea of any “commonality of a Finno-Ugric world”
From what some Finns have stated here sometimes, they would appear to be in agreement with this statement.
__________________
'Dardanidae duri, quae uos a stirpe parentum
prima tulit tellus, eadem uos ubere laeto
accipiet reduces. Antiquam exquirite matrem:
hic domus Aeneae cunctis dominabitur oris,
et nati natorum, et qui nascentur ab illis.'



We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

–Plato–

'Many people, I believe, wish for a society where faith, decency, pro-life convictions and national self-determination within Europe can flourish; and not be swallowed up in a dictatorial EU bureaucracy.'

Gerry McGeough, Irish Nationalist and POW–

Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)     Quote this post in a PM
Old Monday, July 7th, 2008
wilpuri's Avatar
Fennomaniac
 
Last Online: 6 Hours Ago 14:45
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Finland
Age: 21
Posts: 782
wilpuri is a sage.wilpuri is a sage.wilpuri is a sage.wilpuri is a sage.wilpuri is a sage.wilpuri is a sage.wilpuri is a sage.wilpuri is a sage.
Default Re: Estonia, Russia Clash on the Future of Finno-Ugric Peoples

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menydh View Post
From what some Finns have stated here sometimes, they would appear to be in agreement with this statement.
The statement is largely true. There are few factors that unite the distant and small branches of the Finno-Ugric languages. But I still support full-heartedly the notion of co-operation and support for the unfortunately very weak position of Finno-Ugric minorities in Russia.
__________________


Hän kuolee, eikä kuole hän.

Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)     Quote this post in a PM
Old Monday, July 7th, 2008
Sohni's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Last Online: 16 Minutes Ago 20:46
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Estonia
Posts: 79
Sohni is noble of speech.Sohni is noble of speech.
Default Re: Estonia, Russia Clash on the Future of Finno-Ugric Peoples

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marulus View Post
When?
Every four years, so the next one will be 2012.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilpuri View Post
The statement is largely true. There are few factors that unite the distant and small branches of the Finno-Ugric languages. But I still support full-heartedly the notion of co-operation and support for the unfortunately very weak position of Finno-Ugric minorities in Russia.
Yes, agreed. "Finno-Ugrics" is actually a very wide term. We Baltic Finnics are probably more distant from Ugrics than for example in case of Indos, Swedes are from Iranians. Genes and languages rarely have the same borders.

But because there are so few of us, because many of our peoples have become extinct as the result of russian colonization and russification and too many still have insecure future being part of Russia, we cannot separate from each other, even if the only thing that relates us to each other is only a little bit of language.
__________________




Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)     Quote this post in a PM
Old Monday, July 7th, 2008
Senior Moderator
 
Last Online: 4 Hours Ago 16:22
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,761
Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.Arthur Gordon Pym is a deity.
Default Re: Estonia, Russia Clash on the Future of Finno-Ugric Peoples

Curiously, the sound of the Finnish and Estonian language reminds me a little bit of Hungarian. I speak Hungarian (but not Finnish nor Estonian), but when I hear people speaking Finnish not too closely from myself, to me it looks as if they were speaking some weird Hungarian I do not understand one single word of. It is only when I approach them that this deception dispels. At first I thought it was some personal impression of mine, but then I heard native Hungarian speakers relate exactly the same stories.

Last edited by Arthur Gordon Pym; Monday, July 7th, 2008 at 12:36.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)     Quote this post in a PM
Old Monday, July 7th, 2008
Sohni's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Last Online: 16 Minutes Ago 20:46
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Estonia
Posts: 79
Sohni is noble of speech.Sohni is noble of speech.
Default Re: Estonia, Russia Clash on the Future of Finno-Ugric Peoples

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marulus View Post
Curiously, the sound of the Finnish and Estonian language reminds me a little bit of Hungarian.
Structure of languages is similar, but Estonian/Finnish words are very different
from Hungarian ones.

"Living fish swims under water" is the most similar sentence in languages of three independent Finno-Ugric nations (meaning the closest Hungarian one to Baltic Finnic languages, Estonian and Finnish languages have countless similarities of course):

Elav kala ujub vee all (Estonian)
Elävä kala ui veden alla (Finnish)
Eleven hal úszik a víz alatt (Hungarian)
__________________




Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
None


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
History of Freemasonry Arthur Gordon Pym Freemasonry & The Anglosphere 41 Monday, March 31st, 2008 22:39
Great Britain on Sweden Aptrgangr Early Modern Age 0 Wednesday, December 26th, 2007 00:47
Pascendi Dominici Gregis: On the Doctrines of the Modernists Faísca Catholicism 0 Saturday, April 23rd, 2005 16:02
Bose, The Indian National Army and The War of India's Liberation Theobald Modern & Contemporary History 0 Monday, February 28th, 2005 15:55
Rerum Novarum - Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII Ederico Catholicism 1 Sunday, February 13th, 2005 19:57

Locations of visitors to this page

All times are GMT. The time now is 21:03.

Page generated in 0.5287659 seconds with 23 queries.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.1.0