Albanians

[Uri]

I always had some questions when, learning about the different european nations, the albanians are present. I will try to explain myself:

The fact is that it's strange to see how a formerly Christian and presumably european ethnic group has converted into an anti-european, pro-american and pseudo-islamic nation. I think the explanation is far from understanding this situation only by the Ottoman rule. Other nations like Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece also had suffered the same situation with another different result. As far as I know, Albania was part of the Byzantine Empire and most of his population was Orthodox before the ottoman invasion. True, his national hero Skanderbeg was a former muslim educated in the Ottoman court, but at some point, he converted to Christianism and fight the turks like some of the most important european heroes towards the islamic invasors.

Also, Albania was one of the most hermetical states in the World during Enver Hoxha's rule, perhaps only surpassed by the north koreans. How a nation situated in Europe can fell under this kind of social system? What's wrong with albanians?

Now, I read some posts about the menace of secession of albanians in Macedonia if this state don't join the NATO. Why albanians have such an attitude?

How it's possible that this strange and anti-european nation appeared in our Continent?

If you can, try to explain your point of view by the ethnic and historical facts, not from your national opinion, please.

[M.R.]

This is indeed strange to understand, however they are not the exception in the Balkans, you have other groups who embraced Muslim religion and developed, what you would call, 'anti-European' view. It must be something about their mentality, I don't know, it's hard for me to understand those people, even though I have met plenty of them here in my country, due to quite large number of immigrants from there.

Also, from what I heard, Skanderbeg wasn't Albanian himself...

[Kan Yuvigi Asparukh]

May be in some nations the Christian culture and traditions were stronger. Albania was not one of them. I don't blame them. They are just on the other side now. But the situation with the Bulgarian muslims is quite more complicated. Their self-identity is confounded. The Pomaks are trying to make their civilization choice between their Bulgarian language and tradions on the one side and the Islam customs, on the other

[Menydh]

Uri, I believe that the explanation is not in an "Islamic" character in the strict sense of the word, but in an "Ottomanic" one.

[M.R.]

There's too much talk about Turkish invasions in my country anyway, my land has seen the regular Turkish army only few times, the regular invasions were converted Serbs and Croats who plundered the land regularly. I heard from a Turk that at the time of Ottoman empire Turkism was forbidden, so you couldn't define yourself as a Turk (or at least, it wasn't welcomed), but rather as a Muslim (as part of Ottoman Muslim empire). Also, the Turkish army itself was very ethnicaly diverse itself. This is a stupid argument used by multiculturalists who defend building Islamic center here (mostly for Bosnian Muslim and Albanian immigrants here, we don't have much Turks here), that the Muslims in Slovenia (or even 'Muslim Slovenians') today have nothing to do with historical invasions... A spit in the face to every single Slovenian who defended this sacred land.

[Uri]

So, we can conclude that there are some specifical traits on the muslim population of the Balkans. In the case of Bosnia, there has been some speculation about the Bogomilians (related in some way to the Cathars of Occitania) and their reject of hierarchical religions. This perhaps infuenced the penetration of Islam in this region, but in Albania I think there wasn't such antecedent.
As for the Ottoman rule, possibly it was easier for the invasors to dominate the albanians due to the tribal society of this nation. In the north of Albania there are a strong presence of clans, and perhaps, dividing the loyalties, they consecuted in the total control of this country.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Uri

In the case of Bosnia, there has been some speculation about the Bogomilians (related in some way to the Cathars of Occitania) and their reject of hierarchical religions.

These are not speculations but rather myths fabricated by the Bosniak (Muslim ethnicity) "scholars", who claim that the entire population of contemporary Bosnia and Herzegovina is neither Croat or Serb but Bosnian (regional identity) instead. They claim that the numbers of Bogumils was great, and that they converted to Islam only to protect their identity, as Islam was allegedly similar to their old faith. I don't think they cared much for their identity, but for their lives. Anyway, the historical record concerning the subject are sparse, but all of them indicate that Bogumils were persecuted as heretics and were not great in numbers.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by Monolith

These are not speculations but rather myths fabricated by the Bosniak (Muslim ethnicity) "scholars", who claim that the entire population of contemporary Bosnia and Herzegovina is neither Croat or Serb but Bosnian (regional identity) instead. They claim that the numbers of Bogumils was great, and that they converted to Islam only to protect their identity, as Islam was allegedly similar to their old faith. I don't think they cared much for their identity, but for their lives. Anyway, the historical record concerning the subject are sparse, but all of them indicate that Bogumils were persecuted as heretics and were not great in numbers.

They were no Bogomilians in Bosnia. Never. Some of them lived in Dalmatia and Hercegovina though. A small number. What all people (and Uri) mean by saying 'Bogomilians' are Krstjani (christians), wich were members of the Crkva Bosanska (Bosnian church). It was a christian church like every other. The problem here is, it wasn't subordinated to the Roman catholic, or any of the eastern churches. A pain in the arse to Hungary the most, since Hungary created the medieval Bosnian state (ot at least who gave them independence). First, just a banate, a territory ruled by a ban, set up by the Hungarian rulers (in this case), later gained sovereignty, due to the geographical composition of the Bosnian teritorry and the impossibility to lead an efficient military operation on it's terrain. Nevertheless, hungarian rulers never gave up, and started a few times crusades against Bosnia. And this is my point. The Bosnian church was not a heretic one, but it was presented as such by Magyar rulers because of their wish to take over this land. And a 'holy crusade against heretics' is the easiest way to be victorious, as it would mean having help from other catholic rulers all over Europe, including the Pope. It's about politics, not religion.

But it's a whole different story with ordinary peasants in Bosnian villages. They seem to have embraced just a little from christianity, that is, they knew about Jesus, as son of God, what a cross is, the New Testament, and called them selfs christians (krstjani). That's pretty much it. It seems to me that in their traditions and core beliefs, medieval Bosnians stayed pagans. Throughout time a large number of them converted to catholicms (after 1290, and the arrival of Franciscan missionaries). Before that, there also existed orthodox christians in Hercegovina, and parts of eastern Bosnia (Srebrenica f.e.) due to the influence of the Serbian orthodox church.

Like Monolith already said, none of this what I wrote above is important to understand the conversion of some Bosnains to islam (). It's just... as a muslim your life was easier. Nobility converted because they didn't want to lose their land, peasants did it because they were feed up with the every-day struggle for survival.

--------------------------------------

Balkanics are stubborn. To understand the pro-Ottomanic, or pro-Islamic view of Albanians, and other muslims from the Balkan today, one has to know that after 500 years of rule, these people thought it would stay this way forever. Time changed it, the Balkan was christian again, and those people found them selfs in hostile environment, with no privileges anymore. Well, stubborn as they are, they didn't want to go back to the faith of their forefathers, or even try to find a compromise, but stayed together with their old masters, the Ottomans (now Turks). At least that's what I believe to be the case with Albanians. Bosnian muslims had a somewhat different post-Ottoman history.

[Uri]

Originally Posted by Vincent

Balkanics are stubborn. To understand the pro-Ottomanic, or pro-Islamic view of Albanians, and other muslims from the Balkan today, one has to know that after 500 years of rule, these people thought it would stay this way forever. Time changed it, the Balkan was christian again, and those people found them selfs in hostile environment, with no privileges anymore. Well, stubborn as they are, they didn't want to go back to the faith of their forefathers, or even try to find a compromise, but stayed together with their old masters, the Ottomans (now Turks). At least that's what I believe to be the case with Albanians. Bosnian muslims had a somewhat different post-Ottoman history.

This can explain the current identity of the albanians, certainly. But, how about the nature of Enver Hoxha's regime?. Can such be explained also understanding the post ottoman history of Albania (the need for diferenciate and maintain a different personality from their neighbours)?. If yes, this seems to be a good reason for understanding this part of the albanian history..

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Vincent

It's just... as a muslim your life was easier. Nobility converted because they didn't want to lose their land, peasants did it because they were feed up with the every-day struggle for survival.

[...]

Balkanics are stubborn.

Sounds like they weren't stubborn enough though when it came to conversion to Islam.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by M.R.

Sounds like they weren't stubborn enough though when it came to conversion to Islam.

I think Ottomans are to blame for the large part of Balkanic mentality.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by M.R.

Sounds like they weren't stubborn enough though when it came to conversion to Islam.

Ottomans didn't use any direct force to convert them. Same as with the communist rule. Many people in ex-Yugoslavia were members of the communist party just for the privileges that came with it. Worlds lie between threatening ones physical, spiritual and material integrity with a sword and with law, as people respond different to it (I've learned it from first hand).

[M.R.]

Well, Ottomans were invaders and some people in Bosnia accepted the religion of their invaders, that doesn't really go in lines with stubbornes described in posts previously. It's probably different mentality of people, I don't know, it's hard for me to understand, since here it was always more of a zero-tolerance to foreign things. Anyway, it's probably something like Monolith said, it goes in line with Ottoman identity of certain Balkanic people.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by M.R.

Well, Ottomans were invaders and some people in Bosnia accepted the religion of their invaders, that doesn't really go in lines with stubbornes described in posts previously. It's probably different mentality of people, I don't know, it's hard for me to understand, since here it was always more of a zero-tolerance to foreign things. Anyway, it's probably something like Monolith said, it goes in line with Ottoman identity of certain Balkanic people.

Islam was not only accepted among the Bosnian population, but also in Croatia, Serbia and Hungary. Most of these individuals are now know as Bosnian muslims (Bosniaks). The Croatians and Hungarians who converted to Islam took land in Bosnia, after 1699. when the Ottomans lost their territories in Hungary, Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia (my mothers is 1/4 Hungarian, from a muslim family who lived in Vojvodina). You have to look at eastern Bosnia, where the major population (muslim and orthodox) are descendants of people settled there from the area around Belgrade (I heard it was Smederevo) and Montenegro (around 60.000 families from Montenegro were settled in eastern Bosnia, in the 17th century). Some of them stayed orthodox christians, some accpted Islam. There are numerous stories in this areas, from older times, about brothers devided by religion.

Also, one can be stubborn if something is forced upon them, but not when he can makes a choise (or is given at leats the illusion of having a choice). I was talking about this in my previous post. So there was no reasson to be stubborn for them when Ottomans took over the place. Besides this, you can't compare mine and your people around the 15th century. Bosnians where shepherd who lived high on the mountains the same way as they did 1000 years before, and Slovenians were... well you tell me, but I do believe they had a more advanced awareness of their identity. Similar level of identity development in Bosnia, you had among those folks who lived in cities. And almost all of them died deffending their homeland from the Asian foreign invader.

[Crvena zvezda]

Originally Posted by M.R.

This is indeed strange to understand, however they are not the exception in the Balkans, you have other groups who embraced Muslim religion and developed, what you would call, 'anti-European' view. It must be something about their mentality, I don't know, it's hard for me to understand those people, even though I have met plenty of them here in my country, due to quite large number of immigrants from there.

Also, from what I heard, Skanderbeg wasn't Albanian himself...

He wasn't Albanian. His mother was Slavic likely form one of the Montenegirn tribes that were once present in northern Albania. His fathers family were Greek, they were prominent families moved to other parts of the mepire -- i.e. Phanariotes.

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Originally Posted by Uri

The fact is that it's strange to see how a formerly Christian and presumably european ethnic group has converted into an anti-european, pro-american and pseudo-islamic nation. I think the explanation is far from understanding this situation only by the Ottoman rule. Other nations like Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece also had suffered the same situation with another different result.

The main difference is that the majority of Albanians converted to Islam. Thus they came to identify themselves with the Ottoman state structure and identity. Though not all. Some Albanians - especially those in the North remained Catholic and developed something like the anti-Ottoman or anti-Islamic spirit. In the South many remained Orthodox and today they are culturally very akin to the Greek minority living in Albania (around Gjirokastro). One Orthodox priest, Fan Noli, was even Prime Minister of pre-war Albania.

Most of Albanian tribes converted to Islam, in a certain moment in history, probably during 16th century. There is no explanation as to why this happened among Albanians and not among other peoples of the Balkans.

Originally Posted by Uri

As far as I know, Albania was part of the Byzantine Empire and most of his population was Orthodox before the ottoman invasion. True, his national hero Skanderbeg was a former muslim educated in the Ottoman court, but at some point, he converted to Christianism and fight the turks like some of the most important european heroes towards the islamic invasors.

In the North they were Catholic, in the South Orthodox.

Original