Basque Separatism

[Lutiferre]

Could anyone enlighten an uninformed Dane as to the nature of this movement - and whether it is a respectable political project?

[Der]

See What about "Euskadi Ta Askatasuna" and National vs territorial identity in Spain

[Menydh]

This text that I wrote in Irish Nationalism should help you understand the concept of Fueros within the context of the Basque Country. This is central to understand the origin of Basque separatism, but also an important part of the idiosicracy of Spain (The Spains) and of our identity: An Historical Introduction to Spain and the Basque Problem in Context - Irish Nationalism

[Lutiferre]

I have read these links, and my immediate conclusion is that most Spanish ethno-nationalists here are against Basque separatism - which makes sense, since Spain would lose territory if they were to have their will, and since the identity of a non-Basque Spaniard is likely to lack sympathy for Basque identity.

One could say, that most modern ethnicities are unifications of different people, and when some people want to go back in time to their pre-unification roots, other people of the "unification" without a significant cultural past before it, or simply other people of the unification who are for it, would be against it, and adhere to what ethnic identity he has.

My question to anyone who has any interest in this matter is: do the Basques not posses distinctive language, culture, tradition, roots, and their catalyst, which is the essence of ethnicity: identity - and is that not what we call a nation?

[Breogan]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

...
My question to anyone who has any interest in this matter is: do the Basques not posses distinctive language, culture, tradition, roots, and their catalyst, which is the essence of ethnicity: identity - and is that not what we call a nation?

Yes, like other Peoples in Spain.
One state can hold several identities or nations in it and each one having its own Laws (Fueros) according to its special ethnical features. That was the rule in the history of Spain, until the imported French Jacobinism tried to eliminate all the ethnical differences between regions along with the Fueros by means of the centralist modern state you're describing.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Breogan

Yes, like other Peoples in Spain.
One state can hold several identities or nations in it and each one having its own Laws (Fueros) according to its special ethnical features. That was the rule in the history of Spain, until the imported French Jacobinism tried to eliminate all the ethnical differences between regions along with the Fueros by means of the centralist modern state you're describing.

But one would assume that the goal of most (ethno-)nationalists is to establish a nation-state, for sovereignty and independence, whereas multinational states are multicultural, which is traditionally the ideological enemy of nationalism?

[Marulus]

As far as I could understand, there are two political conceptions here battling each other: on the one side there is the conception of the Spanish unitary Jacobinist state; on the other side, a separatist movement seeking to detach the autonomous province of the Basque Country (possibly along with Navarra) from the rest of Spain and create an independent Jacobinist state of its own.

From what I could understand, most of the Spanish members of this forum reject both of these two political conceptions and advocate something like the return to the Ancien Régime of (the) Spain(s), with regional autonomies and diversities (including that of language) preserved and fostered, but with the unity of Spain(s) as nation unquestioned.

My question is: is there any political movement which would advocate that? Is there a significant number of people in Spain who would favour a return to foralismo, to the old, pre-Jacobine ways?

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Marulus

As far as I could understand, there are two political conceptions here battling each other: on the one side there is the conception of the Spanish unitary Jacobinist state; on the other side, a separatist movement seeking to detach the autonomous province of the Basque Country (possibly along with Navarra) from the rest of Spain and create an independent Jacobinist state of its own.

Why is an independent Basque nation-state Jacobinist? Is it not simply the ideal of a branch of ethno-nationalists, that seek to preserve their identity and constitute a true nation state, independent of any unions and threats to their sovereignty?

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Why is an independent Basque nation-state Jacobinist? Is it not simply the ideal of a branch of ethno-nationalists, that seek to preserve their identity and constitute a true nation state, independent of any unions and threats to their sovereignty?

I did not say that every independent ethnic state in itself is Jacobinist, of course it isn't and it doesn't have to be. I did not even imply that a nation-state (ie. a state grounded on the principle of ethno-nationalism) founded on Jacobinist principles is evil per se. There are different situations requiring different solutions, there are different traditions etc. I was referring to this specific situation, to this specific Spanish/Basque case.

The facts that can be deduced from the observation of reality say that the majority of present-day Basques do not support the Jacobinist solution to the issue, ie. the creation of an independent Basque Country on the above-mentioned principles. So I am wondering if there is some third solution to this problem.

[wilpuri]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Why is an independent Basque nation-state Jacobinist? Is it not simply the ideal of a branch of ethno-nationalists, that seek to preserve their identity and constitute a true nation state, independent of any unions and threats to their sovereignty?

Well the constitution of any independent Baque nation is more than likely to reflect the ideals of the French revolution, I think that's what people are driving at.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Marulus

The facts that can be deduced from the observation of reality say that the majority of present-day Basques do not support the Jacobinist solution to the issue, ie. the creation of an independent Basque Country on the above-mentioned principles. So I am wondering if there is some third solution to this problem.

From what I can see, many Basques support an independant Basque nation-state - but that does not necessarily mean on specific principles. But I think, democratic considerations aside, a Basque state doesnt sound so bad, and I think the Basque nation deserve it if they really want it. The question is whether the people that are against it are against any Basque independence, or just one specific political movement/base of principles?

[Breogan]

Originally Posted by Marulus

As far as I could understand, there are two political conceptions here battling each other: on the one side there is the conception of the Spanish unitary Jacobinist state; on the other side, a separatist movement seeking to detach the autonomous province of the Basque Country (possibly along with Navarra) from the rest of Spain and create an independent Jacobinist state of its own.

From what I could understand, most of the Spanish members of this forum reject both of these two political conceptions and advocate something like the return to the Ancien Régime of (the) Spain(s), with regional autonomies and diversities (including that of language) preserved and fostered, but with the unity of Spain(s) as nation unquestioned.

My question is: is there any political movement which would advocate that? Is there a significant number of people in Spain who would favour a return to foralismo, to the old, pre-Jacobine ways?

Exactly explained. Thanks.

[Breogan]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

From what I can see, many Basques support an independant Basque nation-state - but that does not necessarily mean on specific principles...

You can't obviously see beyond separatist and marxist agenda, at the same time by the way (independent and socialist Basque country like their motto), supported by far less Basques than many as you say.

What many Basques support is their identity like I do btw, and not necessarily out of the rest of Spain.

But I think, democratic considerations aside, a Basque state doesnt sound so bad, and I think the Basque nation deserve it if they really want it. The question is whether the people that are against it are against any Basque independence, or just one specific political movement/base of principles?

I wonder how you can do such a stament about a Spanish matter that you don't have the right to talk about with this evident lack of respect.
You should mind your own nation and not others', even more if your ignorance about the issue is complete.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Breogan

You can't obviously see beyond separatist and marxist agenda, at the same time by the way (independent and socialist Basque country like their motto), supported by far less Basques than many as you say.

Okay, well, I am not an expert, I am only judging out of my impressions, so I am likely not describing matters accurately.

Originally Posted by Breogan

I wonder how you can do such a stament about a Spanish matter that you don't have the right to talk about with this evident lack of respect.
You should mind your own nation and not others', even more if your ignorance about the issue is complete.

Please dont take offense. Actually, the only reason I am interested in it is that I am fascinated by small nation-states, and as a rule, I would support the constitution of any nation-state if it indeed is a true nation, because independence, localization and sovereignty is preferable over centralization and unions.

But that does not mean I support this Basque movement - actually, I am just interested in it, and now I am interested in why people oppose it. So yes, it is out of ignorance - or more accurately, out of lack of knowledge, and thus curiosity.

[Martín Zalacaín]

This are the figures of the general elections of yesterday in the Basque Country:

PSE-EE (PSOE) 425.567 38,09%




EAJ-PNV 303.246 27,14%




P.P. 206.702 18,50%




EB-B 50.123 4,49%


EA 50.121 4,49%



aralar 29.784 2,67%


PSOE: "light" socialist party
EAJ-PNV: Basque Nationalist Party
PP: center-right party
EB-B: Leftist party
EA: basque nationalist party
aralar: basque nationalist party

[donTomas]

Excuse me. You are not "judging out of your impressions", you are a victim of the powerful JELtzale (PNV) cultural and political propaganda.

This is evident for me, as a spaniard with basque roots and some historical and political education. When speaking to the victims of this powerful mechanism of deception I always have to listen the same statements, the same misconceptions.

For example, take a look at this:

since the identity of a non-Basque Spaniard is likely to lack sympathy for Basque identity

Spain, without its basque roots is not Spain. As simple and conclusive as it sounds. And there are only three types of spaniards: the (minimally) educated, who are completely aware of this, the resentful who try to deny this fact exactly because they are extremely hurt by the lies and terrorism of the secessionists, and a minority of ignoramus (like the white trash) who are too nerd to know anything about their roots and don't care.

Foreigners -and even non-basque spaniards- who have been cheated by that masters in propaganda technics who are the secessionists, tend to imagine that the "BASQUE PROBLEM" is something like Ireland trying to reach its freedom from the UK, or another heroic freedom-fight. They can't believe it when they wake up to reality. Reality of a bunch of symbols, names, flags and even a neo-language created by a medically insane freak and his followers, sponsored by a wealthy shipowner and politically favoured in its origins by the Spanish liberal "Crown" as a weapon against basque traditionalists. A movement which received its huge power (political, economic, cultural) thirty years ago from the same state structures they want to destroy. A movement which opresses and kills pro-Spain (pro-history, pro-real tradition) basques and makes them to flee from the lands of their ancestors. A movement which has failed to rise the secessionist support over the 25-30% barrier despite the fact they control the schools, the culture, the economy, the political institutions, the media, the trade unions...

The reality is that most of the PNV voters are just a bunch of bourgeois frightened, well-off, who supports the PNV to maintain their privileges and simply don't care of the fate of conscious pro-truth basques.

It is not like Ireland fighting british occupation. It is like some Sligo inhabitants saying they never were an irish people.