Basque Separatism

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Yes, that people tend to take offense, unless I mention everything I am not saying in these threads. And then people take a little bit of passive-aggressive offense anyway.

Well, you are right, its none of my business.

Right.

I think this remark is interesting though. I respect that most Spaniards here are against Basque independence

Given the current circumstances, if they were to separate to form a state apart from the lunacy of multiculturalism today and to preserve that part of the Spanish nation which is the Basque, I would support it.

but I also respect if there are some Basques that feel independence is in their right.

You are dealing here with a post-romanticist degeneration of the struggle of the Basques (and of all other Spanish peoples) for their Old Charters of Laws and Freedoms. Not with any nationalism.

Nothing to be respected there.

I'll give you a more in-depth insight. Maybe as a follow-up to that thread in I-N. But not now and not in this thread.

But that doesnt mean that those who dont agree with me are freaks

It was not you who I was calling a freak.

[Ferran]

Originally Posted by donTomas

Reality of a bunch of symbols, names, flags and even a neo-language created by a medically insane freak and his followers

A clear proof if his emotional inestability is the fact that one or two years before his death, he tried to fight for the opposite of what he was fighting during great part of his life (which is a sign of a minimal sanity, but still a clear example of an inestable mind). He realized of all the harm he did to the Basque identity through the construction of such movement, and consequently wanted to counter its effects.

Well, this new initiative of Sabino Arana, now self-declared "Spanishist with all his soul", included the dissolution of the Basque Nationalist Party (the party he himself founded) and the foundation of another one, named "Liga de los vascos españolistas" (League of the Basque Spanishists), of regionalist character and clearly inspired in the Catalan Regionalist League of Cambó (of well documented Spanishness).

Unfortunately, none of these projects was actually accomplished, as his most radicalized followers did not accept his change of opinion and attributed it to some kind of illness. On the other hand, his unexpected death in the following months did not help either. By the way, this phase in the life of Sabino Arana has always been silenced by the PNV, as it could very well raise some unconfortable self-questionings.


By the way, Lutiferre was asking for the respectability of Basque nationalism, right? Well, I sincerely hope to have helped him by explaining him a little bit of the life and psychological reality of its founder.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Ferran

By the way, Lutiferre was asking for the respectability of Basque nationalism, right? Well, I sincerely hope to have helped him by explaining him a little bit of the life and reality of its founder.

Indeed I was. I still feel that I have asked many questions on page 1, that havent been answered at all, though. Because even though this major political movement seems rather dodgy, then my questions as to Basque nationalism in general still stand.

Don't the Basques, after all, possess a distinctive ethnic identity - a nation, containing a culture and a language, no matter how twisted the associated political movements are?

That must be the most basic acknowledgment possible as to any level of decency on behalf of the Basque nationalists.

[Sinergia]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

From what I can see, many Basques support an independant Basque nation-state - but that does not necessarily mean on specific principles.

Look who are the promoters of that independence, I don't want to see them in the Basque Parliament like "Josu Ternera" a terrorist who was member of the Human Rights Commission in that Parliament.

You only have to talk with one separatist and you will know that they are not nationalists.

[Lutiferre]

Still, that does not defeat the basic acknowledgment I just mentioned.
I am not saying I like those guys, however, whether they have big guns and masks does not determine whether or not they are nationalists. Nationalism is not one ideology, one movement, nor a behavioral pattern. Terrorism and intimidation is often used by aggressive nationalist-types, such as certain events in Russia.

[Gnist]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Still, that does not defeat the basic acknowledgment I just mentioned.
I am not saying I like those guys, however, whether they have big guns and masks does not determine whether or not they are nationalists. Nationalism is not one ideology, one movement, nor a behavioral pattern. Terrorism and intimidation is often used by aggressive nationalist-types, such as certain events in Russia.

At least you have gotten some information and opinions to your query. That is quite something, and now all of it is available to other people who may have wondered as well. I think your questions were answered.

[Ferran]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Indeed I was. I still feel that I have asked many questions on page 1, that havent been answered at all, though. Because even though this major political movement seems rather dodgy, then my questions as to Basque nationalism in general still stand.

Just a "major political movement" you say? Hell, they are nothing less than the responsibles of the existence of Basque separatism today (!). One of their aims when they were born was to convert optimistic, constructive Carlists (which to be concise, are the most pro-Hispanic people you can find in the whole XIX century history), into pessimistic, destructive separatists, whose work against Basque tradition can be still be observed till this day. And I told you, even the founder himself repented of this.

Don't the Basques, after all, possess a distinctive ethnic identity - a nation, containing a culture and a language, no matter how twisted the associated political movements are?

It depends entirely in your personal definition of nation and ethnicity... What can I say? If you consider language so important in terms of ethnicity, I can tell you that before the Roman conquest, all the North-East, East and South of Hispania was speaking the Iberian language (of which Basque is just the only remnant, for causes of which you cannot blame any of us). Also, Romans themselves divided our lands into "ethnic-friendly" provinces, and not surprisingly, the Basques (or Vasconii), were included in the province compromising the north and east of Hispania (which basically are the lands you can find more proto-Basque toponimyia nowadays), even if the Romans did never "fully" rule the Basques (and so they preserved their language, unlike other Hispanic peoples).

That's it, can you seriously say that the Latinization of these non-Basque Iberian peoples automatically changed their ethnic affiliation and family tree from one day to another? This would be simply unrealistic, and indeed, in spite of these unimportant linguistic differences, Basques continued to feel Hispanic/Iberian for all the next centuries, in good times, but also in very bad times. To name one of them, we can speak of the times in which almost all Spain was Muslim, and there were small Christian states in the north. The Basques and Navarrese never dienied help to those Iberian kingdoms which needed it, and they themselves were one of the most passionate Reconquistadores, either as Basques, Navarrese or Latizined Castilians (which Basque influence can be appreciated even today in their vocalization, etc and etc).

Further, a [Basque]-Navarrese king, Sancho III, was the first Spanish king of which there's knowledge of having atributed to himself a pan-Hispanic title, rex Ibericus in his case. Something that was more "romantic" than anything else, as he was neither the ruler of all Christian Spain nor he expected to see an all-Christian Iberia during his lifetime, but it was indeed a clear declaration of intentions of his will to "recover all Spain", something which was never liked by the southern neighbours by the way. Well, this tradition was in the later times followed by other kings from all the other Hispanic kingdoms without exception, until Spain was finally all-Christian again.

I could also speak of the Basque as they were in the rather extensive good times, but I think it's more illustrative to talk about how they were in the hard times.

Regarding culture... Basques have tauromachy as a part of their identity (as all Spaniards have... or had, since the animal-rights fighters are simply too influential). Basques have the same cuisine all Cantabric Spain has. Basques have the Jota as one of their regional dances, and the Jota is the most extended dance in all the North of Spain (although sometimes is just referred as Aragonese). Basques don't have "very" different traditional costumes of those of all Northern Spain. Old Basque men used to wear a "boina", as all other Spaniards did. Basque people have equal popular sayings as those Castilians have... and even the most anti-Francoist Basque singers of the 60's and 70's sang with Spanish guitars (!), etc..

That must be the most basic acknowledgment possible as to any level of decency on behalf of the Basque nationalists.

The regular Basque separatist (I won't say "nationalist" because many people who vote the PNV aren't "that" separatist, but rather federalist) ignores great part of his history and has no interest to know others'. I just hope you won't get angry if I don't say "yes" to every Basque separatist I see and try to educate him about some aspects of his history and nature.

[Ferran]

Well, so far we have had the opinion of one Basque in this thread, but I think it would be also great to add which idea of Spain did the most celebrated (funnily, even by separatists who most probably ignore great part of his works) Basque poet of the XIX century have. Jose Maria Iparraguirre (1820-1881):

Ara nun diran mendi maiteak
Ara nun diran zelayak
Baserri eder zuri zuriak
Iturri eta ibayak.

Endaian nago zoraturikan
Zabal zabalik begiak
Ara España... lur oberikan
Ez du Europa guziak!

Which with my poor English translates:

There they are my beloved mounts
there they are the meadows
the pretty, white, white caseríos*
the fountains and the streams

I'm in Hendaya crazy of happiness
with my eyes wide, very wide open
Here's Spain... there's no better land
in the whole Europe!

*Typical Basque small house

Note: You can easily appreciate nostalgy in that excerpt of one of his poems (Nere etorrera lur maitera), as it was written after years of living in South America.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Ferran

It depends entirely in your personal definition of nation and ethnicity... What can I say? If you consider language so important in terms of ethnicity, ..

I dont, I consider identity the main constituent, which can both spawn or have grounds in culture, language, race, etc. The question is not what I consider important though, but what what those Basque separatists do, which is the reason they exist.

But no, I respect what you are saying. Basques indeed have a great part in Spanish history. But identity is far from always rational, so there doesnt have to be rational reasoning behind these Basques movement - but I do believe they have marginal reasoning, perhaps just not enough for the majority of Spanish people to find significant.

Like you say, it depends on peoples own definitions of nation and ethnicity, or simply their ideas about it, their identity.

[donTomas]

Yes I am, and I can hardly be a victim of what you mention next, since I have no idea what it is, and since I havent decided whether to support this Basque movement. This is just discussion for me, not advocacy of anything.

Have you ever read an article from british, german or US newspapers about ETA and "basque secessionists"? Have you ever watched an ARTE (<strike>mock</strike>)documentary about this topic? Have you ever seen an ikurriña?

¿Yes?

You are a victim.

Just one more thing: it is ridiculously absurd to say it doesn't matter if all the foundations (historical, cultural, aesthetic) of basque separatism are tendentious manipulations, lies and alibies. It is the emotional believing in these tales what makes some young basques to hate their own parents and to start to kill innocents.

Do you know that Ignacio de Juana Chaos, probably the most bloodthirsty terrorist of ETA, is the son of a falangista volunteer who fought in the Spanish Civil War with the nacionales and himself ultra of Fuerza Nueva until his "change over"?

Do you know that Xabier Arzallus, president of the PNV over decades and probably the most powerful and influential spaniards-hater in contemporary history, is the son of a requeté carlista who fought in the Spanish Civil War as a volunteer? He was so passionate that abandoned wife and children and went to war with 45 years. He was also an enthusiast francoist, just like his son Xabier, who was also francoist before his contact with secessionist propaganda.

But in your educated opinion it doesn't matter.

[Sinergia]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

I am not saying I like those guys, however, whether they have big guns and masks does not determine whether or not they are nationalists.

The fact of the guns only prove that the mainly supporters of that independence are cowards terrorists, I have sayed that they are not nationalists because they are Internationalists, Marxists.

In their first Assembly they sayed that was the language what defines the Basque identity, so the ethnicity for them is not important.

[Menydh]

The way I see it, you are basing the idea of a Basque nation differed from the rest of Spain, predominantly in the language. You are not alone. But please, bear with me through these lines.

The problem with this approach is that language alone does not define a nation as distinct from another. But most important here is the fact that the attempts to construct a distinct Basque nation based on language, have failed consistently to explain the presence of toponymic words spread throughout the Iberian Peninsula, of ancient origin and which have a Basque root.

We usually refer to the Castilian language (Spanish language for you) as being a Romance language. But this falls short of explaining the distinctiveness of Castilian in front of other Romance languages.

This distinctiveness has been explained in terms of a Basque element present among the early speakers of Castilian. Historian and Philologist Menéndez Pidal argued that [early] Castilian was the Romance language spoken by the little romanicized Basques and Cantabrians.

However there must be part of truth in this, we must also take into account that the very name of Castilla (etymology: land of castles or of dwellers of castles, which is likely to be the same etymology as for Catalunya) changed around the year 800 AD, from the name Bardulia.

There are no doubts that the name Bardulia originates in the Bárdulos (or Várdulos, from Latin Varduli; notice that in Castilian language the fricative /v/ sound is confused with /b/, which is also a characteristic of the Basque language where fricativeness does not exist). These Varduli were a pre-Roman people whose lands were in the eastern part of the modern Basque Country, and who were displaced by the Pyrnean Vasconi around the time of the decline of the Roman Empire. And so were two other tribes to the west of the Varduli: the Caristii and the Autrigones. Roughly around 95% of the modern territory that we know as Basque Country was occupied by the Basques during the centuries VI and VII AD, following the chaos left by the removal of Roman Legions to protect the Eastern Roman Empire and the "efficient" administration of the Goths (or lack thereof).

Not surprisingly, the name for Basques in Spanish used to be Vascongados, a word that has been long displaced by that of Vascos. Whereas the people to the west of the modern Basque Country, in northern Navarre and beyond, were referred to as Vascones. In fact Vascongado derives from vasconizado (through its Latin correspondence, according to M. y P.), which means basquicized.

So now we know that so many of these Basques are, in fact, "basquicized" peoples. Probably what remained of the Autrigones, Varduli and Caristii, plus an adstratrum of Vascones.

The question is who were these Varduli who migrated to Bardulia (or ancient Castile). Although there is no certainty about this, it seems that the Autrigones and the Caristii might have been Celtic (as in celticized) peoples. But some scholars denied this point. More doubts are casted over the Varduli, since they might have been a people of a similar stratum as the Vasconi.

Would that explain the strong influence of Basque in the Castilian language? It might, but we must remember that there is no evidence of a unified Basque language at the time, and until fairly recently so-called Basque language was a series of dialects which could be more or less understand each other. That is until S. Arana came in the XIXth century with an artificial language which he called Batua. And so another possibility would be that the Varduli spoke a language similar to Basque, but not necessarily Basque since they were not Vasconi (and maybe only because of that reason).

So, is early Castilian the rude romanced language spoken by little romanicized "Basques"? or is it the language spoken by little romanicized ancient Iberic peoples other than Basques? And if the latter, why if they were not Basques their language influenced (in sounds as well as in vocabulary) that early Romance language as the Basque would have distinctively done?

There are two ancient languages which are likely related to the Basque language: Aquitanian and Iberian languages.

And there are two modern languages strongly influenced by any of these: Gascon and Castilian languages. Other languages such as Aragonese is also strongly influenced by Basque. But even in Catalan, a more Romance language, we find many words like Garriga or Garrotxa which are clearly of a Basque root. Or we find the name of García, of Basque etymology, in an early king of Galicia and no few of Castile.

I'm not going to get into details about the deep character of the Spanish in general, and of the Basques in particular. But suffice to say that if you knew us, you would know that the Basque is the primitive soul of the Spaniard. The essence. We are Basques who speak Romance languages. Not one, but many.

[wilpuri]

Are there any Basque political movements or similar that promote this traditional view of Basques & Spain?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by wilpuri

Are there any Basque political movements or similar that promote this traditional view of Basques & Spain?