Definition of Europe

[Crvena zvezda]

Originally Posted by Errigal

I would say Europe is the cultural area of the Roman Empire which was maintained and expanded on by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. The regions permanently lost to Islam (the Maghreb, Egypt, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor) obviously are no longer part of Europe.

I have never been to the Caucasus but I would say the Georgians are European while the Armenians are not. The Armenians seem too Oriental to me.

Too me both Armenia and Georgia seem to be oriental. Despite that i don't care if they're European or not. But if one had to choose criteria on determing this I'd say use this criteria: which state is more desperate to present it's self as being "European" and as part of this desperation is in the long-term thinking of joining such anti-European organizations as the EU & NATO. Or better yet, which one of them has good relations with Turkey & Turkic states? (the answer for both is Georgia, given my views on Turkey & Turkics, and on the EU & NATO, I would say Georgia is more un-European).

[Ostrogorski]

Originally Posted by Marulus

I could answer with a counter-question: "I thought you said you liked to read traditionalist thinkers?" In the Revolt against the Modern World (I read it - again - recently) Evola speaks of the different worlds of traditions and speaks of similarities between them. The solar cult is present in ancient Egypt too and he does not see Islam in a necessarily exclusively chtonic perspective, as you imply.

Perhaps, but you're asking me the wrong question. I never said what Evola thought about Islam, I mentioned him and other Traditionalists because in their writings you can find informations about Hyperboreans, and that's what you asked me...

But this is not about solar cult solely, obviously, otherwise Incas and Japanese would be counted as Hyperboreans too. Hyperboreans didn't worshiped the sun... sun personificated the Almighty's real light and life-giving force on the earth, but it's not deity.

This is about Hyperborean heritage that all of their descendants in Europe of today share. Sure, there and then Europe influenced the desert people and vice versa, but it's clear that the collective spirit of these 2 groups of people is totally different.

I know very well the general idea of what the Hyperboreans are, but there are different explanations. So I asked you what you think about that and what is your definition.

And about Evola: although I consider many of his critiques of modernity (and especially his rejection of scientism and the cult of progress) as valid and I share them, his fantasizings about the lost worlds need be taken with a pinch of salt.

Then I'm fantasizing too hahaha

Let's just take the symbol of cross. At the metaphysical plain it's a typical polar symbol. Vertical represents the link between the heaven and earth, and the path of the Son of God, from his Father, in heaven, to earth ( so he could deify it too). In polar symbolic it's the path of the sun ( which is not the Son of God but his visible manifestation) from summer solstice to winter solstice. God's fall, so He could rise again ( resurrect). Central point of polar sacral year is winter solstice. It's the magic moment in which the death turns into a new life. Sun, by falling to the lowest point beyond the horizon, starts it's way upwards, towards the heaven.

What's the most important about this is that Hyperborean symbolism has it's full and real sense only at the latitude of 90° N!

You mean: Theseus?

Yes, I meant him. Thanks to both you and Produ who corrected me in his rep point.

Starting to forget the names of the characters... must be getting old

Greek heritage was present in the European Christendom always: in the West it was through translations (sometimes via Arabic), in Byzantium through original texts.

Yep, but how many people used to speak about how great democracy, polytheism, ancient art etc. was and how bad dark ( middle) ages were before the "enlightened-ones"?

With all those Middle Eastern desert-cults that migrated westwards? As was especially seen in (some branches of) the Gnosticism.

Be more precise... you're talking about dualistic heresies like Cathars, Bogumils etc.? What's your point? These heresies weren't of European origin and were very often promoted by Jews, especially at the south of France.

Who cares about Hitler and what he thought about anything or anyone

I mentioned him to compare his views with the ones of the "enlightened-ones", and guess what - they were the same.

[Kalevi]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

But one can also say that ancient Greece was the land where desert thought meets the solar ( Hyperborean) thought, where Hyperborean Hellenes meet the desert Cretans and Pelasgians. There was enough of both - chtonic cults, snake and stone worshiping, female deities related with the fertility cults, widespread homosexuality and pederasties etc. All signs of desert.

There were also solar signs - supreme god of thunder, sky, and justice - Zeus, sun gods Apollo and Helios, Spartan courage and war craft, the myth of Perseus in which he kills the typical chtonic deity of middle east - the Minotaurus and stops the practice of human sacrificing in Crete, in typical chtonic building - the labyrinth etc.

If female gods of fertility, snake- and stone worshipping and labyrinths are "Middle-Eastern" or "signs of the desert", then the whole pre-Indo-European Europe should have been nothing but a huge desert. Venus-figures associated with female fertility were typical already in the Ice Age, and there's labyrinth-figures made of stones even in Finland.

Despite my rationalist standpoint, I can somehow subscribe to the symbolism used here. But instead of being only something specific to desert peoples, the things you call chtonic and Middle-Eastern are just an archaic form of spirituality and religious life.

[Kalevi]

Originally Posted by Errigal

The Nordic countries are bit of a special case. It seems as if Roman or Orthodox Christianity did not really sink right down into their cultures. Hilaire Belloc said the same is true of Germany and he may be partly right.

This may have got to do with Protestantism - which was a puristic movement trying to approach the roots of Christianity as a monotheistic religion and getting rid of it's Pagan heritage.

I often wonder why there seems to be the most interest in neo-Paganism and other kinds of alternate spirituality in Protestant countries among all. Is it because Protestantism abandoned the Pagan elements of Catholicism and left the people a Middle-Eastern religion unfit for their mentality and culture? Or is it just a reaction of abolishing the local, communal elements (and people's roots) in the benefit of a universal religion.

[Ostrogorski]

Originally Posted by Kalevi

If female gods of fertility, snake- and stone worshipping and labyrinths are "Middle-Eastern" or "signs of the desert", then the whole pre-Indo-European Europe should have been nothing but a huge desert. Venus-figures associated with female fertility were typical already in the Ice Age, and there's labyrinth-figures made of stones even in Finland.

Interesting. Of course, that's just my opinion based on some of my observations of the subject, so I don't necessarily have to be right in every case, but here's an information regarding the subject from wiki page Venus figurines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :

All generally accepted Paleolithic female figurines are from the Upper Palaeolithic. Although they were originally mostly considered Aurignacian, the majority is now associated with the Gravettian and Solutrean. In these periods, the more rotund figurines are predominant. During the Magdalenian, the forms become finer with more detail; conventional stylization also develops.

A number of attempts to subdivide or classify the figurines have been made. One of the less controversial is that by Henri Delporte, simply based on geographic provenance[3]. He distinguishes:

* the Venus figurines of the Pyrenees-Aquitaine group (Venus of Lespugue, of Laussel and of Brassempouy)
* the Venus figurines of the Mediterranean group (Venus of Savignano and of Balzi Rossi)
* the Venus figurines of the Rhine-Danube group (Venus of Willendorf and of Dolní Věstonice)
* the Venus figurines of the Russian group (Kostienki in Russia and Gagarino in Ukraine)
* the Venus figurines of the Siberian group (Mal'ta Venus, Bouret' Venus).

According to André Leroi-Gourhan, there are cultural connections between all these groups. He states that certain anatomical details suggest a shared Oriental origin, followed by a westward diffusion.[4].

The absence of such figurines from the Iberian peninsula is curious. Only few and rather dubious examples have been reported, especially at El Pendo and La Pileta. The so-called Venus of Las Caldas from a cave near Oviedo is a Magdalenian antler carving. Although some scholars see it as a stylised female body with an animal head, it is probably a decorated atlatl-type device.

Some of figurines are steatopygic which indeed isn't a European and certainly not Caucasoid trait. Generally, I belive that these figurines are either of middle eastern or of Neanderthal origin.

Originally Posted by Kalevi

Despite my rationalist standpoint, I can somehow subscribe to the symbolism used here. But instead of being only something specific to desert peoples, the things you call chtonic and Middle-Eastern are just an archaic form of spirituality and religious life.

Perhaps, perhaps not, who can tell? But the fact stays that certain traditions and religious practices are more characteristic for certain people than they are for other - chtonic cults for the near and middle easterners, animism for Africans, shamanism for Asians etc.

[Uri]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

Some of figurines are steatopygic which indeed isn't a European and certainly not Caucasoid trait. Generally, I belive that these figurines are either of middle eastern or of Neanderthal origin.

A connection with the Hotentots of Meridional Africa??. Also, there was some controversy about the Grimaldi Man, for some specialist a negroid skeleton (althoug the hotentots are a bit different from the negroids) found in the shore of the Mediterranean.

Julius Evola, in his article Mediterranean prehistory, notes about a struggle between the Cro-Magnons and the dark people of the musterian period. For him, also in european legends there are some references to this. For example, in the irish legends, the Tuatha dè Danann (a semi-divine race of possible septentrional origin) defeated the Fomori, who were depicted as a darker and diabolic folk. Perhaps, this also is a remain of the contact of the more advanced Cro-Magnon with the Neanderthals.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Kalevi

This may have got to do with Protestantism - which was a puristic movement trying to approach the roots of Christianity as a monotheistic religion and getting rid of it's Pagan heritage.

I often wonder why there seems to be the most interest in neo-Paganism and other kinds of alternate spirituality in Protestant countries among all. Is it because Protestantism abandoned the Pagan elements of Catholicism and left the people a Middle-Eastern religion unfit for their mentality and culture? Or is it just a reaction of abolishing the local, communal elements (and people's roots) in the benefit of a universal religion.

Indeed, it's not a coincidence. The most fanatic self-loathers hijacked Protestantism and literally destroyed a lot of our heritage. People of the same kind who follow that tendency try to live their lives according to the Torah today, or, more commonplace, they are areligious and worship their bad conscience of being so "lucky". I have seen an old cathedral built in the Catholic era with wall-paintings, that Protestants simply covered with chalk. While I actually admit that some of those white wall cathedrals are beautiful, you just can't deny that Protestantism cleansed itself of a lot of the local imagery, and caused a distance between itself and the people. Given the neo-Judaeic and multicultic agenda of the Swedish church that the social democrats achieved, and the liberals follow too, they are those who have turned strange, not me who is frowning at them.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Kalevi

This may have got to do with Protestantism - which was a puristic movement trying to approach the roots of Christianity as a monotheistic religion and getting rid of it's Pagan heritage.

I often wonder why there seems to be the most interest in neo-Paganism and other kinds of alternate spirituality in Protestant countries among all. Is it because Protestantism abandoned the Pagan elements of Catholicism and left the people a Middle-Eastern religion unfit for their mentality and culture? Or is it just a reaction of abolishing the local, communal elements (and people's roots) in the benefit of a universal religion.

Yes, I think when people looked around their bare bones churches and listened yet again to the stories of a vengeful foreign people who lived long ago in a faraway desert it drove them toward their remaining pagan traditions, or to invent new "ancient" traditions.

[Carnyx]

Some of figurines are steatopygic which indeed isn't a European and certainly not Caucasoid trait. Generally, I belive that these figurines are either of middle eastern or of Neanderthal origin.

These figurines are not mere statues but fertility symbols. I don't think the purpose was to represent the traits of a female body accurately. Obviously the shapes are exaggerated.