Shared Ethnic Minorities between Sweden and Finland

[Routasydän]

Gere's anti-Finnish attitudes are known.

I wonder how he feels about the prevalence of the descendants of Finns in various Swedish Nationalist movements.

[Kalevi]

Originally Posted by Gere

The quote goes far too soft on Tage Erlander, who was a Finn and the one who STARTED modern mass immigration as we know it here in Sweden.

Eh, where did you get the idea that Erlander was a Finn? I cannot find any source claiming that - not even the Finnish wikipedia which usually tends to know things like that.

Tage Fritiof Erlander (June 13, 1901, Ransäter, Sweden - June 21, 1985, Huddinge, near Stockholm, Sweden) was a Swedish politician.
...
He was born in Ransäter, Värmland County as son of the school teacher Erik Gustaf Erlander (1859-1936). His mother was Alma Nilsson (1869-1961).

Tage Erlander - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All the names are fully Swedish (which by itself doesn't deny Finnish origins, but at least Nilsson is not a common name in Finland at all - and neither Erlander).

[Zrinski]

Don't know much about this issue but I must say Tage Erlander doesn't sound very Finnish to me. Even if he had roots from Finland he was obviously of Swedish ancestry. AFAIK Finland was for centuries part of Swedish kingdom and Swedish is still even official language in Finnish public service and is widely taught at school. Not to mention large ethnic Swedish minority lives in Finaland (Aland).

[Menydh]

I read that Erlander was a proponent of Norden, the so-called Nordic Model, as an example to export to other parts of the world.

[Routasydän]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I read that Erlander was a proponent of Norden, the so-called Nordic Model, as an example to export to other parts of the world.

I think a distinction should be made between the pre-war roots of the Nordic model, at least its Swedish proponents, and the current regime. Many influential proponents of the folkhemmet, the peoples home, had clearly ethnic concerns as well. One such would be the Gunnar Myrdal. I think the current, festering multikultist fever rose only some decades after the war.

Don't know much about this issue but I must say Tage Erlander doesn't sound very Finnish to me. Even if he had roots from Finland he was obviously of Swedish ancestry.

At one point in time, almost all Finns had Swedish surnames (at least in official records, in practice they often used Finnish forms of the surnames). Also, the current Swedish-speaking minority, excluding that of Åland, identifies with Finland and the Finnish nation. I guess they are somewhat similar to the Norman-descended Irish, in that they've become an integrated and integral part of the nation.

[Menydh]

I don't know of any pre-war origins of the Nordic model, so I'm not going to discuss it until I get more information. Besides, that would be a discussion for the forum of Economics.

However, I suspect that if you take away the parts that have characterized the Nordic model and its failure, you are likely to get a doctrine based on Corporativism or even close to the Social Justice doctrine of the Catholic Church. In other words, not specifically Nordic.

But that's just speculation until I don't get more information about those pre-war origins.

[Weltschmerz]

Svedjefinnar (eller skogsfinnar) kallas de finnar som genom migration flyttade in i Sverige vid 1600-talets sekelskifte och som försörjde sig på svedjebruk, till skillnad från de finnar som blev verksamma i hyttbruk.

Translation:

Burn-down-woods-Finns (or Forestfinns) is a name for the Finns that moved to Sweden around 1600 AD making a living on burning down woods to use the ground for agriculture. Other Finns made a living by hyttbruk.

Svedjefinnar - Wikipedia, den fria encyklopedin

Tage Erlander descended from Svedjefinnar. Those who would like to think that his mass immigration policy had nothing to do with that may have their opinion, although I think that they too go soft on him.

The following is much harder to contest: That Olof Palme grew powerful and strong in Erlander's government and, as a result of that, became prime minister in direct succession following Erlander. If Erlander did not want that, one would just have to assume that he was clumsy.

Sveriges statsminister - Wikipedia, den fria encyklopedin

[Routasydän]

The Forest Finns were forcefully Swedified a long time ago, so even if he had some Finnish ancestry, he was a Swede.

[Menydh]

What's hyttbruk? For what I had read from Finns, I thought that they were a people in a close connection with nature and forests. I mean, razing down forests to the ashes is not what you would expect then.

On the other hand, if it was for making space for agriculture, it may have a connection with a Neolithic (or even post-Neolithic) character.

[Routasydän]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

What's hyttbruk? For what I had read from Finns, I thought that they were a people in a close connection with nature and forests. I mean, razing down forests to the ashes is not what you would expect then.

The soil in Finland is quite poor, which is why slash & burn farming was a common farming technique for a long time, until farming technology developed.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by wilpuri

Gere's anti-Finnish attitudes are known.

Could it be that my "anti-Finnish attitudes are known" to you, just because you know that I'm a Swede?

Your anti-Swedish sentiment is now known.

[Routasydän]

Originally Posted by Gere

Could it be that my "anti-Finnish attitudes are known" to you, just because you know that I'm a Swede?

Your anti-Swedish sentiment is now known.

I've observed your anti-Finnish tripe on other sites. I don't really care what you think of Finns, I simply want to make it known so that any comment made by you concerning the Finns can be put into the correct context by the wider audience.

I, on the other hand, am fond of Sweden and Swedish culture, and to think of me as anti-Swedish is incorrect.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by wilpuri

I've observed your anti-Finnish tripe on other sites. I don't really care what you think of Finns, I simply want to make it known so that any comment made by you concerning the Finns can be put into the correct context by the wider audience.

So you think that your personal spite against me is the "correct context" of whatever I say, insofar as it concerns a Finn. I will rest assured that most Stirpes people disagree with you. What you think that you have observed is off-topic and a big misunderstanding to boot.

I, on the other hand, am fond of Sweden and Swedish culture, and to think of me as anti-Swedish is incorrect.

In that case you should end your hate campaign against me without delay.

I haven't said anything anti-Finnish. I was commenting on actual political history. As for Erlander being a Finn, it might be difficult to prove conclusively, but he certainly had very Finnish looks. As you have pointed out, the Forestfinns have been "Swedified" or rather integrated. That really explains it all.

Anything you hold against me personally is off-topic. To everyone who doesn't think that the purpose of this discussion is to debate what Wilpuri thinks of me: Let's go back on topic.

[Routasydän]

Originally Posted by Gere

So you think that your personal spite against me is the "correct context" of whatever I say, insofar as it concerns a Finn. I will rest assured that most Stirpes people disagree with you. What you think that you have observed is off-topic and a big misunderstanding to boot.

I have no personal spite. I have simply observed your anti-Finnish antics elsewhere [1, 2, 3].

"Den Finska nationen är därvid rasligt främmande i betydligt högre grad än Danmark och Norge, för att inte tala om kultur där det blir alldeles uppenbart att Finnarna redan för mycket länge sedan valde att tillhöra en Asiatisk och utom-Germansk kulturkrets."

Bolded excerpt:

"...not to mention [Finnish] culture, which clearly illustrates that Finns already a long time ago chose to belong to an Asiatic and extra-Germanic cultural sphere."

This comes as a shock to most Finns, who've been taught in school, that Finland has belonged to the geopolitical west since the times of Swedish conquest in the Medieval era. Anyway, no one is forced any longer to take my word for anything, they can judge for themselves.

In that case you should end your hate campaign against me without delay.

Sure. I will make no further reference to your person in this debate.

As for Erlander being a Finn, it might be difficult to prove conclusively, but he certainly had very Finnish looks. As you have pointed out, the Forestfinns have been "Swedified" or rather integrated. That really explains it all.

1) Forget conclusive proof, do you have any proof?
2) Even if he was a descendant of the Forest Finns, why would that matter? They were Swedified, the last Finnish-speaking descendants of the Forest Finns died half a century ago.

[Menydh]

A note about this discussion:

However there have been reports about this thread, the Staff is not going to take part into it for the simple reason that at present the only member of the Staff who could arbitrate on this feud with a solid background knowledge of the problem, is Silas and he is not online.

For the rest of us, not being Scandinavians or Finnish, the issue of a Finnish ethnic presence in Sweden (or of a Swedish ethnic presence in Finland) is unknown to the details. Including the feelings about it of the Swedes and the Finns or, rather, of Swedish and Finnish Nationalists.

On a personal note, however, I would dare give my opinion in the general issue of ethnic minorities embedded into foreign nations.

While it is possible that individual elements from a foreign (but still European) nation are assimilated in the host nation, full assimilation comes only after at least one generation and assuming that these are individual and mostly isolated cases. I suppose that this also varies from one nation to the next.

On a larger scale, however, problems arise. Larger numbers are rarely assimilated because they tend to stick together and, if there is assimilation, it is at a loss to the host nation as the hosted elements have an impact over the ethnic identity of the natives.

This would still be of a minimal impact if the two groups are as ethnically close as, for example, Sweden and Norway or, apparently, Finland and Estonia.

I can see this as a possible problem in the future with the colonies of foreign residents from Central and Northern Europe in certain parts of Spain. Assuming that other problems which are at present of a greater magnitude (non European immigrants) are gone by then.

As for "West" concerning Europe, this seems to be a much prostituted concept. Strictly speaking, the Greenwich Merdian is a good reference to start with delimiting the west from the east, with deviations of up to 10º W in some countries. And probably with the exception of one country which lies geographically out but which still gets a W-E division of its own.


Anyway, the discussion is interesting in so far as it deals with an existing ethnic problem. It will be allowed to run providing that no serious ad hominem or ad gentem attacks take place.