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Old Tuesday, March 11th, 2008
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Default Workers controlled production?

What is you others opinion on some socialist thoughts of wokers taking over the means of production? For example, worker\' controled factories, hospitals etc. There has been some successes in Argentina which the documentary The Take by Naomi Klein and Avi Lewis shows. Surely we can come up with an alternative economic system that isnt capitalist or state socialist?
Your thoughts on direct democracy and worker\' councils on the working place?
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Old Tuesday, March 11th, 2008
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Default Re: Workers controlled production?

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What is you others opinion on some socialist thoughts of wokers taking over the means of production? For example, worker\' controled factories, hospitals etc. There has been some successes in Argentina which the documentary The Take by Naomi Klein and Avi Lewis shows. Surely we can come up with an alternative economic system that isnt capitalist or state socialist?
Your thoughts on direct democracy and worker\' councils on the working place?
Discuss puppies
Seeing is believing, and I have never seen it working. Any tendency of a workplace to be democratic usually ends up with people squabbling about what the proper way to use the coffee machine is and scapegoating over completely futile things, and so, I concluded that people are not at all capable of working "together" this way. What is always needed in my opinion is a firm, competent and benevolent leadership.
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Old Tuesday, March 11th, 2008
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Default Re: Workers controlled production?

The Take does paint a rather romanticized picture, I have no doubt, but it is inspiring nonetheless.
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Default Re: Workers controlled production?

It can function.
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Old Thursday, March 13th, 2008
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Default Re: Workers controlled production?

Most of us have not enjoyed the blessings of Titoism, but may have some experience with those meetings periodically required by condominiums in order to take decisions.
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Default Re: Workers controlled production?

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Most of us have not enjoyed the blessings of Titoism, but may have some experience with those meetings periodically required by condominiums in order to take decisions.
So have I. And the same (recurring) pattern occurs over and over again: a small, vocal, and energetic minority guides the discussion, makes the policy, and makes the decisions. This is the closest you can come to functioning democracy. Just try to makes sure the small minority doesn't become an entrenched elite otherwise you're back to square one.
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Default Re: Workers controlled production?

Workers controlled production as in a collectivisation or a cooperative? Collectivisations seem to be more related to Socialist economic systems, especially Anarchism.

I know of many Cooperatives that work in Spain, especially in the Banking area, they are not exactly controlled by the workers, as they are controlled by an administration board, but the property is of all the workers. They are small but competitive in rural areas.

As for Collectivisations, these seem to be more utopic than anything else, at least after the Spanish experience in the 1930s. Being runned by workers assemblies might give many problems and lead to chaotic situations.

The Israeli kibutz might be a good example of efficiently runned rural collectivisations, but the truth is that most of them (if not all) have already been privatized.

I personally believe in private property for small and medium business.
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Default Re: Workers controlled production?

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Most of us have not enjoyed the blessings of Titoism, but may have some experience with those meetings periodically required by condominiums in order to take decisions.
I wasn't alluding to Titoism, God forbid. It did not function then, although it was - purely theoretically - the main constituent part of the official labour policy.
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Old Saturday, March 29th, 2008
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Default Re: Workers controlled production?

Bump hehe, interesting discussions!
A good article i found about the "Ultraright" point of view in this question:

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Workers Powers & the Ultraright

By Ean Frick


When Marx talked about the working class attaining socialism he used the phrase “the self-emancipation of the proletariat”. This can mean many things but most obviously it means that workers would seize control of the means of production and run them according to the the needs of their class or community. This phrase also defines what is not socialism. This proletarian self-emancipation is not by way of a vanguard of middle-class professionals who are essentially acting on behalf of the workers (i.e. representativedemocracy) despite that they are not from that class, nor is socialism the mere nationalization (herereferring to nation-statism), which just puts the power of production in the hands of state and thus keeps the manager-worker relation in tact. What can be found to be most faithful to Marx’s phrase in radial theory is the socialism of the guildsocialists, councilists and syndicalists, who described a system workers councils linked by federations of other councils.This is very much the economic structure envisioned by the French libertarian socialist and nationalist, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon.
This idea of direct workers control was named by the French anti-authoritarians of May ‘68 as autogestion, for the trend of thought clearly has some origins in France as early as Blanqui and the Communards. While the slogan and theory of workers power is mostly associated with the Left, it is only found on the far fringes (i.e. ultraleft, utopian, and libertarian) of which these currents faithful to it have very little to do with what is generally considered the Left politically. But this isn’t the only place on the political spectrum that these ideas are found. These currents can be best described as the ultraright (the mirror image of its compliment the ultraleft), though they are often labeled incorrectly as ‘far-right’ and ‘fascist’ by liberal mainstream opinion.

The first group is the Distributists, focused around the philosophy of G. K. Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc, who preached an economic philosophy where ownership of the means of production would be spread out among the community as much as possible. They also wished to see a return to the guild system and sought the elimination of banks and usury. This is clearly much more in the spirit of socialism than a system where managerial duties are in the hands of a few state bureaucrats as was in place in Russia from 1922-1991. But Chesterton, Belloc and other Distributists didn’t derive their ideas from Marx or any other thinkers normally associated with the Left, but rather from the teachings of Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum, where the Pope addressed the issue of the condition of the working classes and supported their right to form unions.
The following group was actually considered fascist both in contemporary discourse as well as upon its inception, however, it’s ideology had much more incommon with syndicalism than what is generally defined as fascism. The Faiscieau was formed in 1925 by George Valois, a one time anarcho-syndicalist who had met with the brilliant radical thinker Georges Sorel as well as Charles Maurras, he was also the founder of the Cercle Proudhon, a group of intellectuals committed to a national syndicalist France. Though the Faiscieau certainly had some fascist dressing, mostly in the aesthetic sense (marches, uniforms, ect.) but also claiming an admiration for Mussolini, from the start they were not your typical fascist party. While authentic fascist Benito Mussolini is quoted as saying: “Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power”, Valois wished to see the economy run by those actually involved in manufacturing goods. This would clearly mean that workers would have control over the means of production as they are most involved in the manufacturing process. Valois also saw his fascism as a revolt against bourgeois rule, which differs from authentic fascism which was committed to protecting the interests of the ruling class against the tide of Marxism. Valois was also committed to an absolutely free trade unionism.

In Aphorisms, written by Jón Ögmundarson, Valois is attacked for “Abandoning the transcendence of democracy, capitalism and Bolshevism in favour of a class free despotism opposed to materialism but offering nothing in it’s place”. Ögymndarson also attacks futurism as “Nothing more then an adolescent rejection of what one is by birth and the obligation sentailed as a result in favour of a direction less and violent vitality imbued stylish inconsequentials”. This is worth noting given an interesting similarity between futurism and the politics of the Faiscieau. Since Valois’ main target was the bourgeoisie, not socialism, he saw Marxists as “brother enemies.” His criticism of Marxism lay in the fact that he thought it encouraged workers to be lazy but also because the insistence on demands for higher wages was irrespective of productivity. While this is ostensibly a reactionary, anti-worker position, when considered with the fact that Valois envisioned the workers taking control of means of production it appears as a proto-futurist position where the worker and machine are one and the worker gets as much out of his labor as he puts in. Here the being who controls the means of production in the new society would also be constantly indebted to the technology of the means of production, but since this society would also be holarchic, there would be no worry about excess products or rampant economic-technological growth that would seek to conquer and subjugate the natural environment.
Another place where the idea of workers autonomy is found on the far fringes of the Right is in integral nationalism. One of the central ideas of integral nationalism is the theory of blood and soil. This is simply the idea that any racial, ethnic or regional groups of people deserve the right to live off the land they descended from. This idea clearly goes against modern capitalism where people are expected to move from place to place for the sake of jobs, which are becoming all the more transient, and ethnic, racial or regional heritage have little meaning in a world where commodities are the primary factor in human interaction. What is also implied by blood and soil is that the group of people in question would live off the land organically and self-sufficiently. In the setting of a small, village community this would clearly constitute as agrarian ‘workers power’ so to speak. Here the Law of Least Effort could easily be applied. Since every member of the society would be involved in its sustainment, there wouldn’t be any citizens mooching of the labor of others. This would be the truest form of a self-determining society, which each citizen being collectively autonomous.

The most recent example of the ultraright supporting workers power comes from the intellectual mind behind the Nouvelle Droite, Alain de Benoist. In The French New Right in the Year 2000, de Benoist and Champetier call for the regroupment of individuals in a society along the lines of spontaneous community: “Communities are constituted and maintain themselves on the basis of who belongs to them. Membership is all that is required. There is the vertical reciprocity of rights and duties, contributions and distributions, obedience and assistance, and a horizontal reciprocity of gifts, fraternity, friendship, and love. The richness of social life is proportional to the diversity of the members: this diversity is constantly threatened either by shortcomings (conformity, lack of differentiation) or excesses (secession,atomization)”. They also call for the political power to be in the hands of local communities: “Local communities would have to make decisions by and for themselves in all those matters which concern them directly, and all members would have to participate at every stage of the deliberations and of the democratic decision-making”. Direct democracy, rather than the current bureaucratic farce of democracy, would also be a logical conclusion for an autonomous society: “Renewing the democratic spirit implies not settling for mere representative democracy, but seeking to also put into effect, at every level, a true participatory democracy (‘that which affects all the people should be the business of all the people’).” The fact that the ideals of workers power, the theory of direct control of the means of production, have survived the death of modernism, where many outdated philosophical myths were finally done away with (i.e the idea of Hegelian linear progress, the abstract man, universalism, emphasis on reason) despite the fact that were are still dealing with their excesses, is worth noting. It is also interesting that the current voice for autonomous community control comes from a philosopher who claims to be beyond the dualism ofLeft/Right as well as is one of the main voices behind the European New Right.

While there are still those elements on the farthest fringes of the Left, known collectively as left communists or ultralefts, espousing historical workers autonomy theory, if one reads their writings they will soon see that they are highly critical of what is normally considered the Left and really deserve to be classed as true radicals, committed more to libertarian methodology than any flimsy abstraction of ‘left-wing’ thought. It is essential to put forth the ideas of direct control over the means of production since they represent a viable economic solution for a society in which the archetype of the Anarch is to survive.
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Last edited by Silas; Sunday, March 30th, 2008 at 18:30.
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Old Saturday, March 29th, 2008
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Default Re: Workers controlled production?

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What is you others opinion on some socialist thoughts of wokers taking over the means of production? For example, worker\' controled factories, hospitals etc. There has been some successes in Argentina which the documentary The Take by Naomi Klein and Avi Lewis shows. Surely we can come up with an alternative economic system that isnt capitalist or state socialist?
Your thoughts on direct democracy and worker\' councils on the working place?
Discuss puppies
I haven't seen The Take, but I worry about the interpretation Naomi Klein and Avi Lewis may put on what sounds like a National Syndicalist or Peronist movement in Argentina. Klein and Lewis may want to hijack such popular movements and guide them toward a kind of neo-Communism.

Here is a flattering portrait of Naomi Klein and her husband Avi Lewis written in a Canadian newspaper:

Quote:
From the Globe & Mail:

Shocked and Appalled
A Portrait of Naomi Klein

by John Allemang
Saturday September 1, 2007

If there’s anyone who knows the ins and outs of a successful marketing campaign, it’s Naomi Klein.


So why is the author of the bestselling No Logo, the 2000 book that tore apart the pretensions of “Just Do It” brand building while inspiring the social-justice spirit in young consumers, walking away from a screening of the video for her long-awaited new book, The Shock Doctrine?


“It’s too disturbing,” she says, as she closes the door to the small room that started off as our meeting place but now feels more like an isolation chamber.


Of course, if you’re a truly discerning consumer of the commodity that is intellectual culture, you’re focusing less on Ms. Klein’s sudden disappearance from her own promotional gathering and more on the fact that her massive new tome (to be published on Tuesday in seven languages) comes with its own trailer - if trailer is a word that can begin to describe this dense and darting six-minute documentary created by Ms. Klein and Mexican filmmaker Alfonso Cuaron (Children of Men, Y Tu Mama Tambien), which will shortly make a more public appearance at the Toronto International Film Festival.


Book videos “are the hot new thing in publishing,” according to the 37-year-old Canadian author, whose particularly successful brand of activism-for-our-times has always had a soft spot for the hot new thing. And why not? Why should left-wing politics be preachy and above-it-all, which is certain death for any movement that is sincerely committed to reaching the masses, whoever they now may be?


Those are particularly relevant questions when the subject is as difficult and unsettling as the one Ms. Klein has chosen for her No Logo follow-up - no less a theme than the human devastation caused by the unrelenting propagandists for the free-market economy over the last 35 years, from the torture chambers of Augusto Pinochet’s Chile and the murderous disappearances in Argentina’s military rule to the morass of Hurricane Katrina and the shock-and-awe destruction of Iraq.


No wonder Ms. Klein flees her own video. Reduced to a film-festival format,



The Shock Doctrine scours the vulnerable brain, as the jarring noises of crying babies and wailing cats surround images of pain and torture that are meant to represent the shock-therapy metaphors peddled by unsparing market economists - in the most visceral and literal way.


This, to Ms. Klein’s sensitive eye, is the ugly face of capitalism, and it’s a sight she can’t stand to see.


We’re a long way from No Logo, a book that exposed the cruel ruses of global branding, true, but didn’t implicate us quite so much in the writhing bodies and twisted souls of the market’s innocent victims. Smart 17-year-old girls latched on to it and found in its breezy pages the substance to go with their style. Hundreds of them wrote personal letters to Ms. Klein, thanking her for opening them up to the world of politics, a place from which they thought they were barred.


No Logo was upbeat, empowering, effortlessly superior to the globalized economy it described (to the point where some critics accused it of being just an elevated version of consumer snobbery). The 662 page Shock Doctrine, as you might guess from its subtitle, The Rise of Disaster Capitalism, is much more prickly and much less eager to please.


As such, it is a risky venture for a woman who found a devoted worldwide audience with her previous book, including praise from British and American rock stars and a paparazzi following in Italy, where unlicensed No Logo boutiques honour her fame. She deliberately resisted writing an obvious sequel - to the point of investing over $200,000 of her advance payments in research operations, building a virtual academic institute in order to get the goods on such unsexy free market gurus as the late University of Chicago economist Milton Friedman. Her acknowledgments alone run to eight pages.


“I did feel some pressure to write another No Logo,” she says, returning to the meeting room after the video’s cacophony has given way to a more bookish calm. “Politics ... but fun!” she says, in a parody of the marketing voice that can reduce every bright idea to its most lucrative and inane. “’Easier than Chomsky,’ someone said. Well, this isn’t that.”
NO UTOPIA

The Shock Doctrine, in her analysis, is “the secret history of the free market.” The concepts that economists such as Prof. Friedman and institutions such as the World Bank so zealously promoted - deregulation, privatization, free trade, debt reduction, huge cuts in the public sector, targeting trade-union movements - have become so mainstream that they seem inevitable for any political office-seeker in a Western democracy, even if they lead to lower wages and less protection for the working classes.


But Ms. Klein is determined to show that this free-market utopia, designed to benefit big corporations and their allies in government, is neither inevitable nor democratic nor a good thing. And by doing so, in her detailed histories of those political and economic crises where the free marketeers overplayed their hand (Prof. Friedman is disturbingly tight with the repressive Pinochet, for example), she also wants to shake us out of our deference to crisis-capitalism’s shock therapy and lead us back to the more humane values of democratic socialism.


Does that make sense? In Ms. Klein’s world, these are givens. Free-market ideals are undemocratic by nature and can be imposed only against the will of the people at “a moment of collective vertigo” when the ordinary rules of political behaviour are suspended - one classic example being Sept. ii, 2001, when right-wing think tanks rolled in with ready-made agendas to take advantage of what she calls “a period of disorientation, when you trust authority figures and think Rudy Giuliani is your long-lost daddy.”


Her project is a secret history because so much free-market rhetoric, in her view, is at odds with the way these economic “reforms” have been carried out. Since people won’t choose a more precarious economic life willingly, they have to be fooled or shocked or tortured into being compliant - which sounds accurate in describing Pinochet’s Chile and post-9/11 Iraq, both of which submitted under duress to the delusions of free-market ideologues, but doesn’t quite correspond with the usual view of the divisive but freely chosen Margaret Thatcher and Mike Harris.


Ms. Klein will point out that Mrs. Thatcher’s government arranged for striking mine workers to be beaten and spied on, and that Ontario’s Mr. Harris had an education minister who was actually videotaped talking about the need to prepare the way for cuts by “creating a useful crisis.” But she’s not about to entertain the idea that Mrs. Thatcher or Mr. Harris came to power because a mass of people actually preferred their ideology to the alternative - we must have been bullied or duped or metaphorically tortured.


As a secret history of capitalism, The Shock Doctrine, for all its hefty research and convincing connect-the-dot revelations about the money men’s back-room machinations, doesn’t purport to be evenhanded. Being balanced and boring just isn’t Ms. Klein’s style, in activism as in the rest of her life.


This leaves her wide open to challenges from free-market defenders such as National Post columnist Andrew Coyne, who comments: “It is true that radical changes in economic policy are usually only possible in conditions of crisis: Chile under Pinochet, Thatcher after the Winter of Discontent, New Zealand after the currency crisis. Israel and Ireland are more recent examples. But that is true not only of free-market reforms: Communism was only imposed in Russia, Cuba etc. after the ‘crisis,’ albeit self-inflicted, of revolution.


“And whereas communism has everywhere been renounced at the first democratic opportunity, I note that none of the free-market experiments I mentioned have been reversed, though different parties have come to power.”


But such polite observations from the other side are not about to waylay Ms. Klein.


“The Shock Doctrine is an alternative history,” she says with amiable defiance. “This is the part of the story that’s been left out. Hundreds of books talk about the other version of history, about the ineffectiveness of big government and the corruption of big labour and the problems of stagflation. This is not that kind of book.”
RED-DIAPER BABY

Ms. Klein’s left-wing certainties, her refusal to lie down and accept the fact that the business mentality has triumphed, are rooted in her family history: “I don’t question being a leftist any more than I would question being a Jew - it’s the culture I got taught as a kid.”


Her upbringing, she believes, is responsible for The Shock Doctrine’s theme of resistance against the privatized world. Her American parents, who came to Montreal during the Vietnam War, both thrived in publicly funded occupations - her mother as a feminist National Film Board director, her doctor father as the founder of a natural-childbirth clinic who also taught at McGill University and worked at a large public hospital. But when Ms. Klein was a baby, the family moved to Rochester, N.Y., and suddenly her mother was working out of a trailer for a local public-access station, while her father treated uninsured patients at a tiny clinic on the edge of town.


“They faced the choice of whether they’d be totally marginal in the United States or part of the mainstream in public institutions in Canada,” says Ms. Klein.


After five years in the United States, the choice seemed more clear-cut, and so Ms. Klein came of age as a serious minded Montrealer - auspiciously, she wrote a Grade 9 essay on the CIA’s responsibility for Pinochet’s 1973 military coup. Clearly, talk in the Klein household was dominated by big issues. Her grandparents on her father’s side were ardent old-school lefties, both of whom supported Stalin out of unassailable faith in the communist cause. Her grandfather, who worked on Fantasia, led a strike at the Disney studios, and Ms. Klein grew up hearing tales of her father, age 13, joining in the protests.


“These are my childhood stories, what we heard on car trips,” she says, “about my grandfather getting blacklisted, about my father screaming ‘scab’ on the picket line at Disney.” Her grandparents joined a rural left-wing community in New Jersey called Nature’s Friends, where Woody Guthrie would show up to sing to the converted. This is where she spent her childhood vacations, giving the lie to the much-repeated description of her in her teens as just another “mall rat” - a recurring image that makes her wince.


“It’s pure propaganda. Yes, I really was a teenager in high school, but the truth is I was a pretty serious kid. It was played up as an interesting angle when No Logo was published” - the phrase “mall-rat memoir” even found its way to the dust-jacket - “and I didn’t do enough to hide it. It will haunt me forever. I do think it’s silly, though. Do men who write fairly serious books get this kind of treatment?”


Having grown up in a Jewish socialist family where politics was table talk, she married into another where the bar may have been set even higher. Her husband, the hyper-articulate CBC television host Avi Lewis, is the son of former Ontario NDP [Social Democrats] leader and UN AIDS envoy Stephen Lewis and of legendary feminist columnist Michele Landsberg. He is also the grandson of the late federal NDP leader David Lewis - the last of the supremely confident Canadian socialists, who coined the phrase “corporate welfare bums.”


Ms. Landsberg first came across Ms. Klein, then the editor of The Varsity at the University of Toronto, when the young writer called for reassurance after drawing fire for criticizing Israel in the student newspaper. “It was very brave of her to take on the Jewish establishment,” Ms. Landsberg says. “She said what she believed without softening the blow, and I was very impressed by her courage.”


As a regular at family colloquies, Ms. Klein most often ends up trading ideas with Stephen Lewis. “Both of them are at a loss for small talk,” says Ms. Landsberg. “They’re both thinking about stuff, and there’s this great engagement around issues.”


Still, Ms. Landsberg feels that Ms. Klein’s greatest similarity is to David Lewis. “We have these old snapshots of David at the Socialist International meetings before the war, as a very young man, and there’s the same intellectualism of the left, and the same passion. That’s the tradition Naomi is a part of, and I see hope in that.”
MOVING WITH THE TIME

The left in Canada has been suffering from a crisis of confidence for many years. Ms. Klein encountered it head-on in her early 20S when she led a pack of her university-journalism friends in the effort to remake a long-standing but faltering left-wing Toronto publication called This Magazine - only to be met with complaints that she was dumbing it down and selling out by directing some of the magazine’s attention (however critical) to popular culture.


“There are always people on the left who are resistant to change,” she says, “who are terribly nostalgic for a mythic moment when everything was figured out. ... But while I feel a part of the tradition, I’m also trying to evolve it. This Magazine was in trouble, and that’s why it was handed to a gang of 22-year-olds. It had not changed with the culture.”


But this is a left-wing thinker who can change with the culture - and even manages to change the culture herself. With No Logo, she helped foster a more critical and nuanced understanding of global business practices at a time that she calls “the highwater mark of corporate triumphalism.”


With The Shock Doctrine, both her goals and her challenges are much greater, despite the fact that the triumphs now seem much less secure, after Enron and the conspicuous failures of the Iraq master planners - one of whom, Paul Wolfowitz, went on to run the World Bank.


“We’re living in a moment of unbelievable defeatism and passivity,” she says, with more animation than that blanket statement should allow.
But instead of rounding on the overly passive masses - somebody must be electing all these duplicitous leaders, or yielding quietly to the corporate rate cuts or nodding off when ‘ so-called terrorists are held for years without trial - Ms. Klein spreads what she calls her “mobilizing stories” in order to rewrite the history of the free market’s triumph, so that leftwingers can realize how they were outmanoeuvred and learn from their mistakes.


The brief sense of victory that No Logo seemed to promise to thoughtful shoppers now seems a long way off, after the post-9/11 arrogance of the disaster capitalists in Iraq, who paid no attention to Ms. Klein’s arguments that the policies of globalization would come crashing down.


“They make the transition from Free Trade Lite, opposing the anti-globalization movement through aim-twisting and bullying, to ‘Who needs the International Monetary Fund? We’ll treat this bombed out country like a blank slate, with no government and no negotiating""


In response, Ms. Klein offers up encouraging examples of people who have refused to play along, like the Germans who didn’t buy into the economists’ miracle cures at the difficult time of reunification: “They know from their history how dangerous it is to shock society. The forces unleashed are volatile, and they’re not forces you can control.”


This is not the bravado of a David Lewis, not even close. But for the endlessly marginalized left, it’s a start.


“Almost no one I know has the confidence David had,” Ms. Klein says. “We’ve internalized the narrative that our ideas have been tried and have failed - which is why we have strong critiques, but when it comes to producing alternatives, we go weak.”


Even a bright, audacious, bestselling leftist Naomi Klein can admit to carrying around the idea that “when we’re in power, we’re a disaster.” And despite the hopes of her Lewis in-laws, she doesn’t, so far, have any interest in running for elected office - a generational difference Michele Landsberg finds hard to accept, even as she acknowledges the shock-resistant activist’s lesson that there are many different ways to change the world.


John Allemang is a feature writer for The Globe and Mail.

Last edited by Errigal; Saturday, March 29th, 2008 at 22:06.
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