The future of Ukraine is in Europe

[Perun]

http://gloryukraine.blogspot.com/200...in-europe.html

The future of Ukraine is in Europe


That is what European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso said to the Ukrainian prime minister in a discussion concerning Ukraine\'s possible entry into the European Union. Ukraine has always been at the geo-political and cultural crossroads between Western Europe and the Byzantine East, and easily absorbed influences from both.

A perfect visual example of this was the strong Baroque influence that went into the building of Ukrainian churches and the painting of icons. This unique blend of Baroque and Byzantine traditions came to be known as the "Kozak"(after the famous warriors of Ukraine) or "Mazepa"(since this art form flourished under Mazepa's rule) style. This while Russia was deeply suspicious of Baroque art forms as "covert Catholicism".

So there is absolutely no question that Ukraine's glorious past has a place in Europe's heritage, and it should be no question that its hopefully bright future should have a place as well with Europe. That's not the question. The real question is to which Europe will Ukraine's future share in. The Europe which embraces its glorious heritage or the Europe which seeks to dissociate itself from it? The Europe envisioned by the E.U. represents the latter, while Ukraine should really wish to associate itself with the former.

The late Pope John Paul II was a strong advocate for the former vision of Europe. He uttered these strong words to his own nation in relation to their decision to enter "Europe". His words are as much true today as they were when he first spoke them in 1991. And they have equal relevance to the Ukrainian nation as it did for the Poles:

“Giving in to desire, to sex, to consumption: that is the Europeanism that some supporters of our entry into Europe think we should accept. But we mustn’t become part of that Europe. We were the ones who created Europe, and with much more effort than those who claim exclusive rights to Europeanism. What is their criterion? Freedom. But which freedom? The freedom to take the life of an unborn child? Brothers and sisters, I protest against this concept of Europe held by the West. And this message must be shouted loudly from this land of martyrs. Europe is waiting for redemption. The world needs a redeemed Europe.”

May Ukraine's future be with the cause of a redeemed Europe!



posted by Perun

[Lisowczyk]

wow I acctually never heard of this quote, but Im 100% behind our Pope with that one. Sadly neither Poles nor Ukrainians seem to be tkaing this to heart, Poland nowadays is probabaly the most wes/american loving country out there, and no disrespect to americans but, I as a Pole dont think America gives 2 sh*ts about Poland, and we still try to cuddle up to the Yanks it drives me mad. And both ukraine and Poland talk about the Eu as if it's the only way to be part of Europe that once the join the EU they are European.

[marius]

Originally Posted by Lisowczyk

wow I acctually never heard of this quote, but Im 100% behind our Pope with that one. Sadly neither Poles nor Ukrainians seem to be tkaing this to heart, Poland nowadays is probabaly the most wes/american loving country out there, and no disrespect to americans but, I as a Pole dont think America gives 2 sh*ts about Poland, and we still try to cuddle up to the Yanks it drives me mad. And both ukraine and Poland talk about the Eu as if it's the only way to be part of Europe that once the join the EU they are European.

The problem is more psychological to the people of Eastern Europe. They felt once abandoned, on Yalta, following WW II. The Western European and American propaganda during the cold war was more concerned on how to make the Americans and Western Europeans ignore more Eastern Europe and what it was then called Soviet Union. That is why, many in Western Europe today think Europe means EU. This is how the laws are made in each EU country and so on. I am not speaking about a few people here or somewhere else who are aware. I am speaking about the majority of Western Europeans and Americans. This is a known fact in Eastern Europe and it is normal people there, may consider themselves completely Europeans when their Western counterparts will consider them too, in their majority. And for the moment, this coincides with being a part of the EU.

[bocian]

For Poland at least, the result is the way it is because of Europe fucking us in the ass. (I'm sorry this is the only way I can put it)

[Nerthus]

Ukraine is already part of Europe. I don't think equating Europe with the EU is correct. I don't like this saying. Europe existed long before the EU and will continue to exist should the EU collapse in future. I'd say European is rather a natural construct than a political one. One is either European, or one isn't. It's related to history, origins, culture, geography etc. - all of these combined. A country doesn't just become European over night. This is what the supporters of Turkey in the EU should understand. Europe is much more than signing some papers and being admitted.

It's true, a lot of people from the West don't see Eastern European countries as truly European. Europe basically means "the West" to many, eventhough the West is the most americanized. That's what the EU is after all - a corrupt and americanized entity which unfortunately does more damage than good.

In the end, the principles the EU is supposedly based on, European unity, solidarity, tolerance etc. - eventhough they do not sound that bad - are only pipedreams on paper.

[SdKfzPuma]

I think ukraine should be admitted to EU before Turkey since ukraine is natural part of Europe! IMO.

[white]

Ukraine shoud not enter in EU. I know what I am talking about. Bulgaria will be a member of EU from 2007. Rich will become more rich poor will become more poor.

[Gil]

As it is, ukrainians are flocking to Western Europe to work as underpayed illegal immigrants and are today the most numerous minority group in Portugal (followed by other eastern european groups) and as such I don't think becoming a part of the EU will change the current migration trend. I think admission to the EU could boost their industrial/economical development but in terms or "europeaness" or of being considered European that's a no brainer: they were always (and are) europeans. The problem, like said above, is that people tend to associate Europe with Western Europe, mainly due to the role of the EU in foreign affairs.

[white]

Originally Posted by Manji

As it is, ukrainians are flocking to Western Europe to work as underpayed illegal immigrants and are today the most numerous minority group in Portugal (followed by other eastern european groups) and as such I don't think becoming a part of the EU will change the current migration trend. I think admission to the EU could boost their industrial/economical development but in terms or "europeaness" or of being considered European that's a no brainer: they were always (and are) europeans. The problem, like said above, is that people tend to associate Europe with Western Europe, mainly due to the role of the EU in foreign affairs.

In next 10 years EU will need by 30 mln. migrants.

[Gil]

Need? Well, I don't know which figures you are looking at but that is not the case here and as a whole population growth is stagnating but hasn't stop entirely so the solution is to increase support to larger families, not to endorse immigration. (IMHO)

[Perun]

Originally Posted by Aeternitas

Ukraine is already part of Europe.

That is basically what I said, but as I also said that's not the real question. The real question to which Europe will Ukraine choose to share its fate. I think you misunderstood my point.

I don't think equating Europe with the EU is correct.

Nevertheless the EU represents a certain vision for Europe. Ukraine's decision is whether or not it chooses to become part of that vision.

Europe existed long before the EU and will continue to exist should the EU collapse in future.

I never said anything to the contrary.

I'd say European is rather a natural construct than a political one. One is either European, or one isn't. It's related to history, origins, culture, geography etc. - all of these combined. A country doesn't just become European over night.

Exactly true(although the concept of "Europe" did evolve over time).

That's the issue at hand; will Ukraine share its fate with the EU vision of Europe(which denies its heritage) or will it share its fate with the vision of Europe that embraces its heritage? That's the main issue here, not whether or not Ukraine is actually European. That's basically what I stated.

[Nerthus]

Originally Posted by Perun

That is basically what I said, but as I also said that's not the real question. The real question to which Europe will Ukraine choose to share its fate. I think you misunderstood my point.



Nevertheless the EU represents a certain vision for Europe. Ukraine's decision is whether or not it chooses to become part of that vision.



I never said anything to the contrary.



Exactly true(although the concept of "Europe" did evolve over time).

That's the issue at hand; will Ukraine share its fate with the EU vision of Europe(which denies its heritage) or will it share its fate with the vision of Europe that embraces its heritage? That's the main issue here, not whether or not Ukraine is actually European. That's basically what I stated.

I was not contradicting you but merely stating my view on the EU-Europe thing

[Perun]

Originally Posted by Lisowczyk

wow I acctually never heard of this quote, but Im 100% behind our Pope with that one.

I first read this quote in an article around the time of John Paul's death. The same article contained another interesting quote from his first visit to Poland explaining the essentially Catholic nature of Poland's identity. I'll try posting it some time.

Ironically a little after I wrote this, I can read John Paul's speech he gave on his visit to Ukraine to which he explained:

Ukraine has a clearly European vocation, emphasized also by the Christian roots of your culture. My hope is that these roots will strengthen your national unity, bringing the life-blood of authentic and shared values to the reforms now under way. May this land continue in its noble mission, with the pride expressed by the poet just quoted[Taras Shevchenko] when he wrote: "Nowhere in the world is there another Ukraine, nowhere is there another Dnieper". You who live in this Land, do not forget this!


Had I known this quote at the time, I wouldve added it as well.

no disrespect to americans but, I as a Pole dont think America gives 2 sh*ts about Poland, and we still try to cuddle up to the Yanks it drives me mad.

Sadly a big culprit in all this is the Polish community in America.

And both ukraine and Poland talk about the Eu as if it's the only way to be part of Europe that once the join the EU they are European.

This is exactly the point Im trying to make. Ukraine should join the cause of a redeemed Europe as opposed to the decadent Europe that the EU represents.

[Nestor]

Last Sunday I crossed the border from Poland to Ukraine at Pzemysl. Poland was easy. The border guards friendly, charming, witty - made us laugh.
The Ukrainian one's - well they arrested the bus and 30 people had to cart their suitcases and instruments at 10.oo at night in the cold and dark to somehow reach Lviv. (Got there at 4 in the morning- 60 kms.) They wanted a 15000 hryvnia bribe to allow the bus to take us to Lviv.

There certainly is a difference between Poland and Ukraine. When attitudes change in Ukraine then I guess Ukraine can become part of Europe. You have to clean out the latent effects of Soviet Russian behaviour first.

[marius]

Originally Posted by Nestor

Last Sunday I crossed the border from Poland to Ukraine at Pzemysl. Poland was easy. The border guards friendly, charming, witty - made us laugh.
The Ukrainian one's - well they arrested the bus and 30 people had to cart their suitcases and instruments at 10.oo at night in the cold and dark to somehow reach Lviv. (Got there at 4 in the morning- 60 kms.) They wanted a 15000 hryvnia bribe to allow the bus to take us to Lviv.

There certainly is a difference between Poland and Ukraine. When attitudes change in Ukraine then I guess Ukraine can become part of Europe. You have to clean out the latent effects of Soviet Russian behaviour first.

I confirm, I heard about a similar behaviour from the Ukrainian border guards against of a very nice Romanian bus, filled with a lot of well-positioned Romanian tourists, managers to a some multinational company in Romania, I think it was Siemens Timisoara. But this happened in 1996, I hoped they changed, it seems they did not... Well, still travelling to the ex-USSR is a risky business, at least during the time the countries will still be so poor. One should be aware of it, when planning a trip to Belarus, Ukraine or Russia.

[SdKfzPuma]

Yes true, i must say, there was too much Russian brain washing that was hammered into the Ukraine as a result this is what you get. I always said many russians were misanthropists and tried to infect as many countries with that mentality, sadly Ukraine bore much of that brunt.

[Nestor]

Originally Posted by SdKfzPuma

Yes true, i must say, there was too much Russian brain washing that was hammered into the Ukraine as a result this is what you get. I always said many russians were misanthropists and tried to infect as many countries with that mentality, sadly Ukraine bore much of that brunt.

Lot of brain washing but gradually things are changing. I've just come back with about 20 books of amzing materials. Currently reading them in haste.

What is interesting is that some of the myths have been shot down by Russians themselves (through various Russia tv programs and investigative reports) in Russia but they continue to exist in the Russian population in Ukraine.

[Ross]

Originally Posted by Nestor

Last Sunday I crossed the border from Poland to Ukraine at Pzemysl. Poland was easy. The border guards friendly, charming, witty - made us laugh.
The Ukrainian one's - well they arrested the bus and 30 people had to cart their suitcases and instruments at 10.oo at night in the cold and dark to somehow reach Lviv. (Got there at 4 in the morning- 60 kms.) They wanted a 15000 hryvnia bribe to allow the bus to take us to Lviv.

There certainly is a difference between Poland and Ukraine. When attitudes change in Ukraine then I guess Ukraine can become part of Europe. You have to clean out the latent effects of Soviet Russian behaviour first.

It's just regular behavior of Ukrainian scum. Ukrainians have been practising it for centuries.

Such stories don't occur in Russia.