The future of Ukraine is in Europe

[Nestor]

I suppose that is why Russia will probably never be part o Eurpoe culturally.

[Nestor]

Who would want to go to Russia.

Here are 13 reasons I avoid travelling there:

1) The main cities and places where people gather are full of thugs and Mafia.
2) It is a hassle to travel to Russia because of the paperwork to get a visa internal registration internal visas etc..
3) Everyday on the news there are constantly giving reports of bombings and ohter internal catastrophe's. last time 3/4of Russia was without power beacuse the grid had equipment from the 50's from the days of Stalin that failed. Millions of chickens died near the place I was staying and the smell was terrible.
4) Chechen terrorist don't know the difference between Russians and foreign visitors.
5) The economy is the pits.
6) The winter is cold.
7) There are alcoholics everywhere you go in the city all day and night.
8) Putin is leading the country like a dictator.
9) There are so many Russian crazies - such as Limonov and the various Skinheads and other "scum".
10) Women there act and dress like like whores.
11) I haven't met anyone recently that didn't have something stolen on his last trp to Russia.
12) Pedestrians do not have the right of way. The more expensive your casr is the more rights you have. The reversion of the Class society in its extreme.
13) The Beaurocray and paperwork is designe dto be just another way in which they use to get more money from you. It is probably the most corrupt society on Earth.

[Exeter]

Why do you think Russia is culturally non-European? Is it because it had no Renaissance?

Ukraine does worse than Russia. I do not know what you are going on about.

I know quite a lot of guys who studied in Russia during Soviet times. They all said Ukraine was much lower class. You must be alone in thinking those things.

http://www.mosnews.com/money/2005/08...vsrussia.shtml

Originally Posted by Nestor

Who would want to go to Russia.

[Ross]

I suppose that is why Russia will probably never be part o Eurpoe culturally.

If being European means accepting Turks in my country I prefer to see Russia "outside" Europe.

Incidentally, if Ukraine ever make it to the EU, it will be AFTER Turkey's accession. That's the place of Ukraine in Europe, if there is any.

Russians don't care if Russia is considered European or not, as Russia has a great civilization... and either Ukraine is European or not, still it has not even resemblance of civilization. Ukrainian best achievement is that Pushin crossed the country on his way to and out of Moldavia back in the 19th century. Face it.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Ross

Russians don't care if Russia is considered European or not, as Russia has a great civilization...

And yourself, what do you think about that? Do you feel European? Do you think your culture is part of Europe cultures?

[Nestor]

Originally Posted by Exeter

Why do you think Russia is culturally non-European? Is it because it had no Renaissance?

Ukraine does worse than Russia. I do not know what you are going on about.

I know quite a lot of guys who studied in Russia during Soviet times. They all said Ukraine was much lower class. You must be alone in thinking those things.

http://www.mosnews.com/money/2005/08...vsrussia.shtml

Moscow News is not the most neutral source of information in fact with regard to Ukrainian matters I would catagorise it as being disinformation.

I studied there I lived there I did business there. It is not rosy it is not as European as Poland but it is not as Asiatic as Russia.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Nestor

I suppose that is why Russia will probably never be part o Eurpoe culturally.

Of Europe.. or of Western Europe? Russia is a part of Europe by her own right. But she is not a part of Western Europe nor has Russia ever claimed to be.

With all respect, I sincerely hope that you are not in the [wrong] belief that Ukraine is a part of Western Europe. Neither geographically nor culturally. Nor will it ever be.

[quote=Duchemin]

Originally Posted by Ross

If being European means accepting Turks in my country I prefer to see Russia "outside" Europe.

[...]

Russians don't care if Russia is considered European or not, as Russia has a great civilization...

I can easily sympathize with that for my own particular reasons. Europe is not one monolithic and homogeneous space, and some nations are more "fit" than others to make a stand on their own.

[Nestor]

[quote=Mynydd]Of Europe.. or of Western Europe? Russia is a part of Europe by her own right. But she is not a part of Western Europe nor has Russia ever claimed to be.

With all respect, I sincerely hope that you are not in the [wrong] belief that Ukraine is a part of Western Europe. Neither geographically nor culturally. Nor will it ever be.

Originally Posted by Duchemin

I can easily sympathize with that for my own particular reasons. Europe is not one monolithic and homogeneous space, and some nations are more "fit" than others to make a stand on their own.

No. Ukraine isn't in Western Europe but it has stronger ties with it than Russia.

Ukraine is central European. In fact the geographic centre of Eureope was marked ion the Carpathians in Western Ukraine by the Austrians over 100 years ago.

The village of Dilove located on the Tisza river, close to the Romanian border, in the county of Rakhiv in the Transcarpathian region of Galicia, contains a historical marker and a large stone believed to mark the geographic centre of Europe as measured in 1887 by geographers from the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The township today is a part of Ukraine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geograp...ntre_of_Europe

No I am no a strong supporter of EU membership. I would prefer that Poland, Sovakia, Byelorus, Ukraine Moldova possibly Romania and Bulgaria and the Baltic states make their own Union or Bloc - one that will slow down the rapid immigration and control investment in the countries but that is probably a fantasy at this time.

[marius]

Ok, Nestor here mentioned the name Romania, so I feel entitled to answer.

1. Do not blame so much Russia for having gangs and mafia, since they are also very present and frequent in Ukraine and Belarus, too. I would say, intuitively speaking, the levels are quite the same.

This is simply due to the fact that KGB had a huge system, more or less like all the secret services in the old Eastern block, which after 1989 (earlier or later in time) dismantled. These guys knew one another, had a "special" way of action and the easiest way to continue it was to group themselves in a sort of mafia. Everything is simply based on their will to keep power. Before, they had a political one, now they want and perhaps have an economical one, based on very strange means to get it. But these are just people used with practising violence to get something. They did it before when they treated this way the anticommunists.


2. Do not blame entire people groups for this. I said one hundred thousands and millions times, it is not the fault of an entire people that some thugs and strange persons out of that particular people behave in the way they behave.

It is just a simple reasoning, if one really wants to make "the effort" to make it, not to blame the simple Russian or Ukrainian, or any other simple Central or Eastern European for what some people with a lust for power out of their peoples did. This is like saying all the Germans are guilty for a lunatic like Hitler arrived in power and made millions die. For Christ's sake, people, try to stay away of generalizations.


3. Nestor, you mentioned a larger "union" of the old Eastern European states (I am using the term Eastern European, since I do not agree to the Central European one, it is just used for trying to forget or to cover like a cat does with its ..., the fact some countries were communist during 50 years time).

I do not know what to believe, but in my head this sounds a bit of nostalgy for the times of the CAER agreement... Well, I do not have the best memories from those times, so let's just keep it, in case the greater EU fails.


Greetings to all.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Nestor

No. Ukraine isn't in Western Europe but it has stronger ties with it than Russia.

Ukraine is central European. In fact the geographic centre of Eureope was marked ion the Carpathians in Western Ukraine by the Austrians over 100 years ago.

That's your view, and it is one that will surely amaze a number of Western Europeans.

The village of Dilove located on the Tisza river, close to the Romanian border, in the county of Rakhiv in the Transcarpathian region of Galicia, contains a historical marker and a large stone believed to mark the geographic centre of Europe as measured in 1887 by geographers from the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The township today is a part of Ukraine

Spain has two towns in N. Africa. And so, what?

No I am no a strong supporter of EU membership. I would prefer that Poland, Sovakia, Byelorus, Ukraine Moldova possibly Romania and Bulgaria and the Baltic states make their own Union or Bloc - one that will slow down the rapid immigration and control investment in the countries but that is probably a fantasy at this time.

A block made up by countries of Slavic influence plus Baltics? And may I ask what's the common bond among all of them? The one that occurs to me is that all have been under the control of the Soviet Union in one way or another.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by marius

1. Do not blame so much Russia for having gangs and mafia, since they are also very present and frequent in Ukraine and Belarus, too. I would say, intuitively speaking, the levels are quite the same.

Incidentally, in Spain it is Ukrainians who are perceived as such.

2. Do not blame entire people groups for this. I said one hundred thousands and millions times, it is not the fault of an entire people that some thugs and strange persons out of that particular people behave in the way they behave.

Agreed. So far I have avoided pointing Ukrainians as gangster criminals for the deeds of some.

3. Nestor, you mentioned a larger "union" of the old Eastern European states (I am using the term Eastern European, since I do not agree to the Central European one, it is just used for trying to forget or to cover like a cat does with its ..., the fact some countries were communist during 50 years time).

Right. The geopolitical label of Central Europe applied to Ukraine sounds most bizarre to me.

[marius]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Incidentally, in Spain it is Ukrainians who are perceived as such.

Well, the Russian Mafia prefers luxury places like Côte d'Azur, Vienna, London, Paris. Usually spies' hangabout places.

Concerning the term Central Europe, I do not think it exists. The term itself is fuzzy. And if there would really be a closed notion to this Central Europe stuff, this would be the area of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire. And yes, it included a part of nowadays Ukraine, whether you like it or not.

Concerning how one people may be perceived by some others, in Northern Europe, Spaniards are not well perceived at all, for example. But this does not stop Spain in being one of the greatest countries in the European history. So, we should not take a "perception" as the reality.

Ave!

[Ferran]

Originally Posted by marius

Well, the Russian Mafia prefers luxury places like Côte d'Azur, Vienna, London, Paris. Usually spies' hangabout places.

I don't think so, it's just that we are largely more efficient concerning that kind of tourism.

Major 'Russian mafia' ring busted

Police arrest 28, including many high-level mob bosses

By Oliver McIntyre

IN A SWEEPING POLICE OPERATION INVOLVING 400 OFFICERS ON THE COSTA AND ELSEWHERE IN SPAIN, 28 ALLEGED ‘RUSSIAN MAFIA’ MEMBERS WERE ARRESTED AT THE WEEKEND, MANY OF THEM HIGH-LEVEL ‘CAPOS’, OR MOB BOSSES, ACCORDING TO POLICE.
The operation, code-named ‘Avispa’, counted with the collaboration of Interpol, Europol and the national police forces of several countries, including France, Belgium, the United States, Russia and Israel, according to Spanish police officials. “It can be considered the largest strike to date in all of Europe against international organised crime,” said the police in a written statement.

In the weekend raids, carried out mostly in the Costa del Sol, Cataluña and Alicante, police searched 41 homes or premises, froze 800 bank accounts at 42 banks and seized 42 high-end vehicles (Bentleys, Mercedes, Porches, Jaguars, etc.). Police say the mobsters, mostly from old Soviet Bloc countries like the Georgia Republic, brought criminally-acquired money from their home countries to launder it in Spain via commercial or financial entities created for the purpose. They allegedly purchased bars, restaurant chains, vehicles and rural and urban properties as assets through which to launder the dirty money.

BENALMÁDENA CONNECTION
Among the many properties held by the gang were a number of luxury ‘chalets’, some with high-security ‘safe rooms’, as well as a 16,621-square-metre property in Benalmádena on which the mobsters planned to build a 38-house development called Los Eucaliptus. They had already received municipal licences for the project, according to the police.
Other Costa towns included in the weekend’s raids and arrests were Málaga, Marbella, Fuengirola and Torremolinos, with a total of five of the 28 arrests made in the province. Police have directly linked 22 of the arrested individuals to the mafias, most of them at the upper ‘capo’ level. They face charges of illegal association, money laundering and false bankruptcy. The other six detainees are charged with being in Spain illegally.

[marius]

If you want my oppinion, I think they base their "operations" on the old infrastructure created during KGB times. The system was then different, because they were less exposed and they exposed themselves much less. Now, everybody likes an Aston Martin or a Bentley, but one has to pay the price of so much visibility.

[bocian]

Originally Posted by Ferran

I don't think so, it's just that we are largely more efficient concerning that kind of tourism.

Much of this 'Russian' mafia is actually not Russian at all for the most part...

Police say the mobsters, mostly from old Soviet Bloc countries like the Georgia Republic

[marius]

Originally Posted by bocian

Much of this 'Russian' mafia is actually not Russian at all for the most part...

One has to make a difference between the low level criminality, pickpockets and so on and the high level mafias, which hang out only in luxury places. It is true, but both are bad, I do not give a white check to high level mafias, just because they are rich and I do not blame just a poor pickpocket for a stealing 50 euros, because he/she was hungry. And what I think is that this "higher" level mafia is formed of ex-KGB ex-USSR officers, no matter where they come from. But again, let's not take this into a poor-rich dispute and to start finding more guilt to poor ones, just because they are poor and we do not like to see poor people.