The Cromagnoid Type

[Maltese Enigma]

Hello to all of you,

Could anyone kindly post some information about the Cromagnoid type/genre?

Much appreciated,

Maltese Enigma

[Agrippa]

Cromagnoid is a spectrum rather than one type. Its the typical combination of robust boned, (relatively) unreduced, broad faced and long headed forms.
Typical representatives are Dalofaelid, Palaeatlantid, somewhat reduced is the Berid form and the broad faced Berberid variants are the Southern flank. Strains being present virtually everywhere in the Europid spectrum, with a more lax definition even beyond.
Alpinoids and Osteuropids being derivatives of Cromagnoids most likely.


The two basic Europid forms which existed before and after sedentary life and stronger self-domestication with all its effects:

Aurignacid (or Capellid, after Combe Capelle) form and Cromagnid (after Cro Magnon)
Though they both constantly mixed, the basic forms always showed up again and again. In modernity Nordid and Mediterranid (leptodolichomorphs = narrow faced-long skulled) would be in the "morphological tradition" of Aurignacids and Dalofaelid, Berberid (eurydolichomorphs = broad faced-long skulled) in the "tradition" of Cromagnid. The former are more adapted for warmer climate, the later more for colder, though there is a strong overlap. I could bring other hypothesis in, but thats something I already did elsewhere and its not really proven yet.
Brachymorphisation and partial pyknomorphisation of Cromagnoids without total reduction (like in robust Alpinoid forms/Borreby) would look like that basically:

Comparison: Borreby skull:

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Cromagnoid is a spectrum rather than one type.

That is the reason why no CRO-MAGNONID sub forum was created?
Regards

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by searcher of truth

That is the reason why no CRO-MAGNONID sub forum was created?
Regards

Nothing against a subforum for Cromagnoids.

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Nothing against a subforum for Cromagnoids.

It would be a good idea, wouldn't it?

BTW one day when you'll have some to time to spare, I would like you to explain the difference between "racial type/sub type" and "spectrum".
I think I've got a slight idea when we talk about "nordomediterranid spectrum" but a definition would be welcome

[Agrippa]

Comparison of Aurignacid vs. Cromagnid, note especially the lower jaws:

Now a comparison of a typical Nordid (or Mediterranid) vs. a typical Cromagnid lower jaw profile:
Classic Aurignacoid (Nordid and Mediterranid) lower jaw profile:




vs. a typical Cromagnoid jaw line which is almost straight (not all examples are just Cromagnoid):



Rather Mediterranid variants (going after Coon at least) with Cromagnoid jaws:


There is some overlap on this, which might or might not be attributed to the fact that "pure" Aurignacoid and Cromagnoid variants dont exist any more if they existed at all, but many variants are a cross. But for the Cromagnoid definition, this jaw line and angle together with the associated total facial height is an important traits. Typical Cromagnids should have the straight lower jaw angle and robust form, as well as a lower total facial height.
Typical prominent examples, Ed Harris:


Viggo Mortensen (rather Cromagnid jaw) vs. Ashton Holmes with a more Aurignacoid one:

Max von Sydow:

[Ariets]

Agrippa: What will we have from mix of Cromagnoid and Aurignacid?

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Ariets

Agrippa: What will we have from mix of Cromagnoid and Aurignacid?

Depends on the exact type(s) and kind of re-combination to get from it...

What exactly do you want to know?

[Menydh]

By "combining" both, wouldn't we obtain pretty much the same that we see usually classified as one or the other?

I mean, doesn't the question imply the [flawed] assumption that types are more or less pure?

And, in the hypothesis that we had two pure samples of each and combined them, what we would obtain would depend on which genes are dominant/recessive for each trait, on each type..

[Ariets]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Depends on the exact type(s) and kind of re-combination to get from it...

What exactly do you want to know?

For example how will or can look skull shape, can have both traits on skull ? (Rather yes) Yes? And why? Or just that is creation of new racial creature?
What we will have from combo of Cromagnoid and Aurignacid? Aurignacid or Cromagnoid? What traits of these types are stronger ?
Et cetera...

[Agrippa]

To begin with, to answer another question I came to hear, both Cromagnoids and Aurignacoid types and variants can be more or less progressive.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

By "combining" both, wouldn't we obtain pretty much the same that we see usually classified as one or the other?

Only if being split up because of genetic recombination, like a mulatto-mulatto mix being pred. Europoid or Negroid.

I mean, doesn't the question imply the [flawed] assumption that types are more or less pure?

Purity in a racial sense means in my scheme, that an individual has all traits of a given racial type or specialisation and produces only offspring of the same kind if ignoring pathological developments. There is no genetic purity and no need for it, thats what it all is about. If an individual with a typical trait combination exists, it "looks pure", genetically pure means not that there was no admixture in the last generations, but is rather prospective: Will produce only offspring of the same kind if reproducing with the same kind - so no recessive traits for another racial type or specialisation respectively.

With some Cromagnoid traits like the jaw form being probably less important for the classic specialisations, so they could survive even if all other traits being adapted to the new environment and standards necessary for survival. This is even more true for generally non-adaptive traits which being used by modern anthropology to reconstruct ancient relations similar to the analysis of sexual genetic markers.

What we will have from combo of Cromagnoid and Aurignacid

Just look at the typical "Anglo-Saxon" variant category, which is a Nordid-Cromagnid blend for comparison.

[torrent]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Cromagnoid is a spectrum rather than one type. Its the typical combination of robust boned, (relatively) unreduced, broad faced and long headed forms.
Typical representatives are Dalofaelid, Palaeatlantid, somewhat reduced is the Berid form and the broad faced Berberid variants are the Southern flank. Strains being present virtually everywhere in the Europid spectrum, with a more lax definition even beyond.
Alpinoids and Osteuropids being derivatives of Cromagnoids most likely.


The two basic Europid forms which existed before and after sedentary life and stronger self-domestication with all its effects:

Aurignacid (or Capellid, after Combe Capelle) form and Cromagnid (after Cro Magnon)
Though they both constantly mixed, the basic forms always showed up again and again. In modernity Nordid and Mediterranid (leptodolichomorphs = narrow faced-long skulled) would be in the "morphological tradition" of Aurignacids and Dalofaelid, Berberid (eurydolichomorphs = broad faced-long skulled) in the "tradition" of Cromagnid. The former are more adapted for warmer climate, the later more for colder, though there is a strong overlap. I could bring other hypothesis in, but thats something I already did elsewhere and its not really proven yet.
Brachymorphisation and partial pyknomorphisation of Cromagnoids without total reduction (like in robust Alpinoid forms/Borreby) would look like that basically:

Comparison: Borreby skull:

precise and inspirational. I had to register here to ask a few questions.
"I could bring other hypothesis in, but thats something I already did elsewhere and its not really proven yet." please point us where this thread specificly is though i think i have read almost all of your posts.

With regards to another thread somewhere else distinguishing between capellid and cromagnid and asking the contributors to choose one of the mentioned types, i tend to think that , though i may have misunderstood, you tend to classify the high vaulted and low vaulted narrow heads under the same division, for example, like what Coon had proposed, long barrow and corded people to the Aurignacid. Then the cromagnid lineage, whose dolichocephaly is due to a archaic and special shape: the unsual long anteroposterior diameter,
alpine, borreby, pamirid would be the partially reduced cromagnid tree.
kind regards

[Agrippa]

Classic Cromagnids are definitely rather a hunter and gatherer type with a high energetic level. They can deal very well with cold as well as changing climate (seasons), but need, as mentioned, a lot of energy. They might also be more often viscoes/slow schizothymic (especially the broad-robust build individuals), rather than sensitive or energetic classic schizothymic personalities, like they are typical especially for the taller-robust Aurignacid variants. They can stand a lot, as long as they have the sufficient energy, but are probably somewhat less flexible both with their movements as well as psychically.
So again one could speculate about selection going after group size, social relations and different competitive strategies common in a group etc. But thats all just speculative.

[torrent]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Classic Cromagnids are definitely rather a hunter and gatherer type with a high energetic level. They can deal very well with cold as well as changing climate (seasons), but need, as mentioned, a lot of energy. They might also be more often viscoes/slow schizothymic (especially the broad-robust build individuals), rather than sensitive or energetic classic schizothymic personalities, like they are typical especially for the taller-robust Aurignacid variants. They can stand a lot, as long as they have the sufficient energy, but are probably somewhat less flexible both with their movements as well as psychically.
So again one could speculate about selection going after group size, social relations and different competitive strategies common in a group etc. But thats all just speculative.

further gracilization is not possible without a change in the diet. as a popular and sad subject the fate of poor polar bears, because of limitation of their lebensraum by global warming, bears become smaller. locomotive ability in the presence of generous prey is an adventage. The size and strength becomes a disadventage in the times of shortage because of the necessity of high supply.
the shape identifies the plan, design. heavy bones are made for heavy work and to carry weight. for example a gorilla has a very big lower jaw to grind the available nutients and to carry that heavy jaw the cranium must be bony and strong i am not going into detail about the possible mechanism. Therefore without a diet which is somehwta similar to the neolithics i dont think that augrinacians wolud have a so weak chin that relieves the upper face free from weight of a lower face and lead to dolichocephaly by means of a diet which not so much protein rich and probably also excluded roots and any other possible gatherer style hard-to-chew nutrients. Any dolichocephal phenotype would not be tall originally.

[Amorsite]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Cromagnoid is a spectrum rather than one type. Its the typical combination of robust boned, (relatively) unreduced, broad faced and long headed forms.
Typical representatives are Dalofaelid, Palaeatlantid, somewhat reduced is the Berid form and the broad faced Berberid variants are the Southern flank. Strains being present virtually everywhere in the Europid spectrum, with a more lax definition even beyond.
Alpinoids and Osteuropids being derivatives of Cromagnoids most likely.


The two basic Europid forms which existed before and after sedentary life and stronger self-domestication with all its effects:

Aurignacid (or Capellid, after Combe Capelle) form and Cromagnid (after Cro Magnon)
Though they both constantly mixed, the basic forms always showed up again and again. In modernity Nordid and Mediterranid (leptodolichomorphs = narrow faced-long skulled) would be in the "morphological tradition" of Aurignacids and Dalofaelid, Berberid (eurydolichomorphs = broad faced-long skulled) in the "tradition" of Cromagnid. The former are more adapted for warmer climate, the later more for colder, though there is a strong overlap. I could bring other hypothesis in, but thats something I already did elsewhere and its not really proven yet.
Brachymorphisation and partial pyknomorphisation of Cromagnoids without total reduction (like in robust Alpinoid forms/Borreby) would look like that basically:

Comparison: Borreby skull:

I think the frontal aspects of reduction are not properly enfasized if at all, and the shorter headed cranium in profile looks too planoccipital. Still I made this quick comparison with Phalian and Alpine crania, and individuals from TROE.