video about the Moorish 'contribution' to Iberia...

[Gladstone]

Originally Posted by A Fist Full of Snow

That's why I like to use sources which were written before the current crowd took over in academia.

I do as well, particularly those sources which were published before the latter 1960's. There are entire libraries on-line with books/journals often going back well into the 19th century which can be accessed for free.

Wonderful example!

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Gladstone

I do as well, particularly those sources which were published before the latter 1960's. There are entire libraries on-line with books/journals often going back well into the 19th century which can be accessed for free.

Wonderful example!

There is something similar from the world of science which I heard about recently. Physicists needing to build the equipment used to make precise radiation measurements are forced to search for lead and steel refined before the first nuclear weapons tests of 1945. Any metal refined after the start of the atomic age risks being tainted by the radioactivity thrown into the atmosphere with each weapons test. Physicists will therefore pay a premium for armor plating from ships sunk before 1945. A group of European researchers paid for the salvage of a sunken Roman ship, in exchange for 80% of its cargo of lead, for the same reason. The lead had not only been smelted before nuclear weapons but had also been shielded from cosmic rays by 50m of water for nearly two millennia.

Finding metals untainted by nuclear weapons tests in order to accurately measure radiation seems very similar to using old documents to judge recent claims made about history.

If political bias was like radiation, this BBC documentary would glow in the dark.

[Gladstone]

Originally Posted by A Fist Full of Snow

Finding metals untainted by nuclear weapons tests in order to accurately measure radiation seems very similar to using old documents to judge recent claims made about history.

Good analogy. It's really amazing some of the old writings that can be found scanned in on-line.

If political bias was like radiation, this BBC documentary would glow in the dark.

[Errigal]

There is another very interesting entry in the same encyclopedia which relates to the claim that the Moors saved civilization for Europe.

From the entry on Averroes:

Under the Califs Abu Jacub Jusuf and his son, Jacub Al Mansur, he enjoyed extraordinary favor at court and was entrusted with several important civil offices at Morocco, Seville, and Cordova. Later he fell into disfavor and was banished with other representatives of learning. Shortly before his death, the edict against philosophers was recalled. Many of his works in logic and metaphysics had, however, been consigned to the flames, so that he left no school, and the end of the dominion of the Moors in Spain, which occurred shortly afterwards, turned the current of Averroism completely into Hebrew and Latin channels, through which it influenced the thought of Christian Europe down to the dawn of the modern era.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Averroes

So it was the Moors burning books and the Christians saving some of the contributions of Averroes, not the other way around! Interesting.

[Hyeronimus]

That School of Toledo, the Escuela de Traductores de Toledo, was not at all in Muslim Spain, but in the already liberated from the Moors Castile of Alfonso X the Learned, the Christian King. There he had Christians, Moslems and Jews working together translating from and into their respective languages as well as Greek and Latin. They even produced the first Spanish Bible under the auspices of King Alphonso. That was possible because it was in Christian Spain, not Al Andalus. It wouldn't have been possible in Córdoba, where the Christians at times suffered atrocious persecution and martyrdom and at times were simply tolerated dhymies who payed heavy taxes and were second-class citizens. Let's not forget that Maimonides was forced to convert from Judaism to Islam and even Averroes had to flee after they burned his books.

[Cromlech]

I didn´t see the video, but I do not want do it after reading of what it treats. It is offensive for us, the spanish. We must be pride of our ancestors and what they did, and we must know the true history.

[Faolchu]

Originally Posted by Cromlech

I didn´t see the video, but I do not want do it after reading of what it treats. It is offensive for us, the spanish. We must be pride of our ancestors and what they did, and we must know the true history.

Before Pelayo, majority of Goths were not "hispanised" and refused to adept customs, religion and language of their hispanian subjects. Only few Goths like Pelayo, or like asturian and cantabrian nobles in 8th century identified themselves as "spanish". So just like muslim Moors, aryan Goths were the not Spanish. However, unlike Goths, Arabs were trying to islamise and arabise everything west of Egypt, and thankfully they wasted too much time on the resistant Berbers (that how the moorish ethnicty got created) instead on Hispanians. But, from Umayyad to Almohads, only few emirs and caliphs persecuted Jews and Christians.
Moors contributed to Iberia, but not as that much as they wanted to in ethnic and religious sense.

[Germanicus]

Originally Posted by Errigal

Physicists will therefore pay a premium for armor plating from ships sunk before 1945. A group of European researchers paid for the salvage of a sunken Roman ship, in exchange for 80% of its cargo of lead, for the same reason. The lead had not only been smelted before nuclear weapons but had also been shielded from cosmic rays by 50m of water for nearly two millennia..

This is very interesting, thanks for the post, i shall investigate further...

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Faolchu

Before Pelayo, majority of Goths were not "hispanised" and refused to adept customs, religion and language of their hispanian subjects. Only few Goths like Pelayo, or like asturian and cantabrian nobles in 8th century identified themselves as "spanish". So just like muslim Moors, aryan Goths were the not Spanish.

For language, those Goths spoke Latin before they even arrived in Spain. There is much reason to be careful to identify the Asturian and Cantabrian territories (where the Reconquista started in the West of Iberia), with the Goths. There is still much discusion among historians about the area, which remained hostile to Romans and later to Roman federated troops (the Visigoths).

Pelayo (Pelagius) is agreed to have been a 'spatarium' of Rodrigo (Roderik). But his very name indicates at the very least a high degree of romanisation (thus hispano-romanisation). Otherwise it would have been a Gothic name.

It was not the Goths who refused to adapt to "customs, religion and language" of their "hispanian subjects". Much on the contrary, it was the Hispano-Romans who refused to adapt to the religion of the Goths (the Arian heressy) and that made King Leuwegild's attempt to unify Spain fail. His son, Rekhared, officially abhorred of the Arrian heressy practised by the Goths (and other East Germanics) and converted to the religion of the Hispano-Romans, Catholicism.

As for the customs, the Goths were a semi-nomadic people who had been in the Roman Empire for quite a long time and were therefore already much romanised (although to a lesser extent than the Hispano-Romans) and used a Latin language at large.

Basically from the time of Leuwegild and Rekhared onwards you speak of Hispano-Goths instead of Hispano-Romans and Goths, to refer to the whole people. So much so that the General who commanded the greatest battle of the Goths against their enemies the Franks, Claudius, was the Hispano-Roman Dux Provinciae of the Lusitania as well as Dux Militaris. 'Dux' being the highest noble and military title after 'Rex' (king), and Claudius being both military and territorial Dux.

So, whether we like it or not, Celts & Iberians -> Hispano-Romans -> Hispano-Goths -> Spanish is a continuity.

However, unlike Goths, Arabs were trying to islamise and arabise everything west of Egypt, and thankfully they wasted too much time on the resistant Berbers (that how the moorish ethnicty got created) instead on Hispanians.

At the time when the Arabs were finishing the conquest of Northwest Africa, the rebellion of a part of the Hispano-Gothic nobility took place and they requested help from the Muslim Arabic Governor of NW Africa, Muza, or Musa. That's what you would call the "Arab invasion", in fact a civil war helped by Muslim troops. There was no such invasion in actual fact. The so-called 'Moorish' from that moment on were no other than Hispano-Goths converted to Islam (most likely by means of the remaining influence of the Arian heressy, unitarian [vs trinitarian] like Islam). These are later known as Muladis (Muwaladun, the name for converts to Islam).

But, from Umayyad to Almohads, only few emirs and caliphs persecuted Jews and Christians. Moors contributed to Iberia, but not as that much as they wanted to in ethnic and religious sense.

Apart from the fact that the so-called Moors were in their majority Spanish converts to Islam (such as the powerful Banu Qasi [Cassius] or the Al Qutiyya [son of the Goth woman] families, the Reconquista had an effect adverse to Islamic presence. So much so that it is said that the Spanish character is forged during the long centuries of Reconquista.

[Cromlech]

Originally Posted by Faolchu

However, unlike Goths, Arabs were trying to islamise and arabise everything west of Egypt, and thankfully they wasted too much time on the resistant Berbers (that how the moorish ethnicty got created) instead on Hispanians.

The muslims (arabs and berbers) conquered most of Spain. Only the northern regions were free of them. If all Spain is christian now is beacuse the efforts of our ancestors, in the Reconquista. Few nations can speak about an exploit like it. So what you say have no sense, Spain would be christian anyway.

Originally Posted by Faolchu

Moors contributed to Iberia, but not as that much as they wanted to in ethnic and religious sense.

Of course not as they wanted. Ethnic influence was little, and there wasnt religious influence at all.

[PureGilaki]

Typical Semitic propoganda (Jewish/Mulsim)

Whats interesting is that the jews opened the gates of Andalusia for their Semitic cousins & they are doing it again in Europe!

Semites thrive in Chaos.....Thats why they are pushing for war in iran (both teh Israelis and Semitic gang controlling Iran.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by PureGilaki

Typical Semitic propoganda (Jewish/Mulsim)

True. If you are Iranian you should know it, since even if Iran was islamicised, the people were not arabicise and remain of Persian stock at larget to this day.

What is interesting to notice is that many of the architectonic marvels of Islam are not in Arabia or in Northern Africa, but in countries like Iran or Spain. And the same could be said about the places where Culture and Science bloomed.

Whats interesting is that the jews opened the gates of Andalusia for their Semitic cousins & they are doing it again in Europe!

Again, true.

I am amazed at this trend of Eurabia, where Jews are being portrayed (firstly by themselves) as an outpost of Europe against the Islamic invasion, and they dare speak of the Spanish Reconquista. Not only they financed the crossing of troops through the Strait of Gibraltar, but they were also given the military command of cities conquered while the Islamic troops advanced farther North.

Semites thrive in Chaos.....Thats why they are pushing for war in iran (both teh Israelis and Semitic gang controlling Iran.

That's right. And the promotion of chaos in the Persian Gulf certainly predates the Gulf War.