Lutheranist shot at Catholicism

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

Counter-question: are you pleased with this sight?

I don't see the picture...

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

We also do not consider them as equals, don't we?

It depends in which sense. I'll explain my way: equal is metaphysical sense, as having the same basic human dignity - yes; equal in this-worldly terms, as having right to come and settle here - of course no!

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

That's why Christianity, Catholicizm in particular, failed. You can not live seperate from people you consider as equal, either you consider them as equal and welcome them here, or you consider them as inequal and do not want to have them here.

Actually, Catholicism has nothing to do with that. Once, for a long time, Catholicism functioned without the immigration. Today it is in the society where immigration and multicult and prevalent. Tomorrow, if the situation changes, it will also function somehow.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Tennyson

A lifelong Catholic named Adolf Hitler. Mein Kampf Volume Two. Chapter II.

Hitler as an expert on the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

[Aptrgangr]

Originally Posted by Plethon

I don't see the picture...

now?

Originally Posted by Plethon

It depends in which sense. I'll explain my way: equal is metaphysical sense, as having the same basic human dignity - yes; equal in this-worldly terms, as having right to come and settle here - of course no!

I do not see any metaphysical equality, I do not only consider them as race but as species apart of my kin. It is not possible to grant any of them equal rights.

Originally Posted by Plethon

Actually, Catholicism has nothing to do with that. Once, for a long time, Catholicism functioned without the immigration. Today it is in the society where immigration and multicult and prevalent. Tomorrow, if the situation changes, it will also function somehow.

So you think the Catholic church goes with the flow? Should Germany be free one time the Catholic as well as other churches will be well adviced not to hamper any national politics anymore. Anyway, for me it is not clear what is real Christianity, and what not, I only know almost all official representants are a case for a tribunal since they are the spearheads of multiculturalism.

[Tennyson]

Originally Posted by Plethon

Hitler as an expert on the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

Hitler actually had common sense unlike the Magisterium.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

now?

I don't approve race-mixing because it changes the biological composition of a nation and not because of some metaphysical inequality.

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

I do not see any metaphysical equality, I do not only consider them as race but as species apart of my kin.

OK, your opinion with which I disagree. But not only theologians, also biologists would disagree. Rather a subjective opinion...

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

It is not possible to grant any of them equal rights.

Once they are not present in a country, the question of their rights becomes irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

So you think the Catholic church goes with the flow? Should Germany be free one time the Catholic as well as other churches will be well adviced not to hamper any national politics anymore. Anyway, for me it is not clear what is real Christianity, and what not, I only know almost all official representants are a case for a tribunal since they are the spearheads of multiculturalism.

Every man is responsible for his own actions, so are people of the Church. So I agree that those responsible should be brought to trial.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Tennyson

However, the possibility of salvation is open to Jews and ignorant savages who have never understood the Catholic faith.
("Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).)

Lutherans believe, correctly, that the superstitions of savages or Muslims cannot lead to salvation. Also, all other Christians will be saved.

There is nothing wrong with the possibility that those who never heard of Jesus Christ could be saved by some mysterious God's plan, of which we are not aware. Because man, having been created on the image of God, has always possibility to come to salvation. Because God doesn't leave anyone without choice, it is highly probable that even those who haven't heard of Jesus Christ can come to salvation, which is in accordance with God's mercy and justice. Catholic Church has always maintained that position and it has nothing to do with the Second Vatican Council. Of course, it is not through those superstitions that those people would be saved, but only and exclusively through Jesus Christ, albeit unknowingly (these things were called "invincible ignorance" and "baptism of desire"). But of course, anybody who ever heard of Jesus Christ and failed to accept Him, has absolutely no excuse.

As regards Jews, there are some heretical leanings in the modern Church that Jews don't need to be baptized and can attain salvation solely through belonging to the supposedly "elect people". But such views haven't been accepted into the Magisterium.

It is rather Protestants who indulge in self-righteousness and that only a small group of elects will be saved, it is rather them who embrace Jewish mentality of chosenitism and self-righteousness.

As for savages, the views expressed by certain members of this forum, who have taken up as usernames certain English poets, rather qualify them as savages than many savages from, say, Polynesia.

[Menydh]

Sorry for the name change. It sounds more appropriate.

[Tennyson]

Originally Posted by Plethon

As regards Jews, there are some heretical leanings in the modern Church that Jews don't need to be baptized and can attain salvation solely through belonging to the supposedly "elect people". But such views haven't been accepted into the Magisterium.
|

Cardinal Walter Kasper, President of the Holy See's Commission for Religious Relations with Jewry:

"This does not mean that Jews in order to be saved have to become Christians; if they follow their own conscience and believe in God’s promises as they understand them in their religious tradition, they are in line with God’s plan, which for us came to its historical completion in Jesus Christ."
CNS STORY: Catholic-Jewish relations: Bumps in the road should not slow journey

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

now?

Of all the different social institutions I would say the Christian Church is the least to blame for this silly girl getting a child from a skinny no-hope Somali. Where was the government to keep him out of her country? Where was her family to forbid her marriage to a stranger? Where were her friends to talk her out of this? Where were her nation's educated elite to counter the Hollywood propaganda machine?

The Church's teachings on universal human dignity and rights have nearly nothing to do with such cases. Christian teaching says we should not lie, cheat, or steal from another human being or enslave them or kill them without good cause. There is nothing about having to allow immigration. Don't forget we have been Christian in Europe for more than fifteen centuries while this sort of thing is almost exclusively a post-Sixties phenomenon.

Originally Posted by Tennyson

Cardinal Walter Kasper, President of the Holy See's Commission for Religious Relations with Jewry:

"This does not mean that Jews in order to be saved have to become Christians; if they follow their own conscience and believe in God’s promises as they understand them in their religious tradition, they are in line with God’s plan, which for us came to its historical completion in Jesus Christ."
CNS STORY: Catholic-Jewish relations: Bumps in the road should not slow journey

If the point of this comment - and the point of this whole thread - is to prove the RC Church is more immigrant friendly and more Jew friendly than Protestants then you know you are talking nonsense. All modern mainstream Christian denominations in western Europe and the Americas are full of this empty-headed One World thinking. If anything the Lutherans and Anglican Communions are worse than the RCs. You know it and I know it; you're just playing devil's advocate to amuse yourself.

[Tennyson]

Originally Posted by Errigal

Of all the different social institutions I would say the Christian Church is the least to blame for this silly girl getting a child from a skinny no-hope Somali. Where was the government to keep him out of her country? Where was her family to forbid her marriage to a stranger? Where were her friends to talk her out of this? Where were her nation's educated elite to counter the Hollywood propaganda machine?

Her nation was fighting a stupid war in the Balkans when the girl went to Finland as a refugee. Now she came back to Sarajevo to bring a surprise to her grandparents. Good riddance.

The Church's teachings on universal human dignity and rights have nearly nothing to do with such cases. Christian teaching says we should not lie, cheat, or steal from another human being or enslave them or kill them without good cause. There is nothing about having to allow immigration. Don't forget we have been Christian in Europe for more than fifteen centuries while this sort of thing is almost exclusively a post-Sixties phenomenon.

The Catholic Church has never condemned miscegenation. Interracial marriages were blessed by the Church already in the 1500s and 1600s. Miscegenation in Europe is a small step from miscegenation in colonies.

However, in North America interracial marriages were condemned by all Protestant churches until the 1900s and they were a taboo in the society.

If the point of this comment - and the point of this whole thread - is to prove the RC Church is more immigrant friendly and more Jew friendly than Protestants then you know you are talking nonsense. All modern mainstream Christian denominations in western Europe and the Americas are full of this empty-headed One World thinking. If anything the Lutherans and Anglican Communions are worse than the RCs. You know it and I know it; you're just playing devil's advocate to amuse yourself.

I am not aware of any European mainstream Protestant denomination which teaches that Jews are saved because they are the Chosen people and don't need to believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

The Catholic Church does teach that the Jews are saved if they believe in Judaism which is heretic.

Lutheranism has been the backbone of nationalist movements in Europe for decades. We should thank Lutheranism for the birth of the German nation-state. The Wartburg festival in 1817 illustrates the inseparable connection between nationalism and Lutheranism.

The reactionary, anti-nationalistic role of the Pope in European history is well known. He backed imperialist states like Spain, France and Austria-Hungary which oppressed European nations.

The views of modern Lutheran churches are irrelevant because they have no influence.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Tennyson

The Catholic Church has never condemned miscegenation.

So you are some kind of a theocrat a la Islam, as I can see.

To you the separation of the Church and the State (Give Caesar what is Caesar's) does not apply, like it doesn't apply to Hebrewists and Islamists. Interesting.

Interracial marriages were blessed by the Church

Source, please.

Miscegenation in Europe is a small step from miscegenation in colonies.

That's a fallacy.

However, in North America interracial marriages were condemned by all Protestant churches until the 1900s and they were a taboo in the society.

Again, source.

I am not aware of any European mainstream Protestant denomination which teaches that Jews are saved because they are the Chosen people and don't need to believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

The Catholic Church does teach that the Jews are saved if they believe in Judaism which is heretic.

This is indeed true, and it is surely related to the fact that Christianism does break away with any idea of a "chosen people".

Protestantism, on the other hand, adopts chosenitism as in its origins there is a judaisation through an increased relevance of the OT.

It is therefore not surprising that many Protestant churches subscribe to the idea of being God's Chosen People, and the descendents of such or such other Israelite tribe.

I'm actually amazed that you even get to eat pork. But there is little doubt that many Protestant churches are mentally (or ideologically) circumcised.

Lutheranism has been the backbone of nationalist movements in Europe for decades.

That adds to the list of your by now many fallacies.

It has not been in Spain, it has not been in Ireland, it has not been in France, it has not been in Croatia, it has not been in Serbia, it has not been in Russia, it has not been in Bulgaria, it has not been in Belarusia, it has not been in Poland, it has not been in... pretty much most of Europe.

And the reason is that in all of those countries which make up most of Europe it was the Catholic or the Orthodox Churches, as they are no Protestant countries.

This makes clear that your Lutheran arguments are ad fallaciam.

The reactionary, anti-nationalistic role of the Pope in European history is well known.

This is more of your fallacious arguments.

If there have been clashes between Rome and kings or emperors throughout history in Europe, the latter represented states (kingdoms, empires) and not nations.

Something that I'm sure that you were aware of it, since I do not have you for an ignorant. Therefore I must conclude that your distortion of equating states to nations to defame Catholicism --a distortion of the truth-- is ill-intentioned.

Where did you learn to distort the truth with such shameless?

He backed imperialist states like Spain, France and Austria-Hungary which oppressed European nations.

What would you know? I'm afraid that the ices had not yet retreated from Finland at that time.

For your information, if by the "imperialist state like Spain" you refer to the dominions in the Low Countries, that was a German issue in which Spain had no interest.

For your information, it was British Protestant Imperialism which opressed and attempted to anihilate the Irish nation: 1649-52: Cromwell\'s conquest of Ireland & The Plantations through modern times (An Gorta Mór: The Great Irish Famine ) and to this day.
As it was the Highlands Clearances: Culloden - The Jacobites
All Protestant backed attempts of genocide against European nations, with a distinctive Protestant flavour.

There are more. And many more if we add non European nations, only paralleled by the actions of the state of Israel in Palestina.

I wonder how many more falllacious statements are you still going to launch in the name of Protestantism, Lutheranism, Evangelism or whatever you wish to call it.

[Tennyson]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

So you are some kind of a theocrat a la Islam, as I can see.

To you the separation of the Church and the State (Give Caesar what is Caesar's) does not apply, like it doesn't apply to Hebrewists and Islamists. Interesting.

Churches have had the liberty to decide what kind of marriages they choose to bless, at least until very recent times.

The Catholic Church does not perform gay marriages and it had the liberty not to perform interracial marriages.

Source, please.

I quote a doctoral dissertion:

"Here I present differences in Catholic and Protestant theologies of marriage. I contend that the Catholic Church viewed marriage between Christians as a sacrament and thus as the purview of the Church, whereas Protestants vested the state with authority to regulate marriage and thus upheld the state’s “right” to prohibit intermarriage."

Botham CGU Dissertation Grant Proposal

Do you disagree that whites and natives entered into Catholic marriages already in the 16th and 17th century? It seems to be obvious that they did so due to the extent of the miscegenation that happened.

Again, source.

"This chapter examines Catholic and Protestant theologies of race. I argue that Catholics emphasized human unity, based upon biblical traditions of Adam and Eve as the progenitors of all races, while Southern Protestants derived a theology of divinely created “separate” races from the “Noah’s curse” story in Genesis. The Catholic theology of race thus posited human unity as the basis for interracial relations, while the Southern Protestant tradition perceived a divine mandate for racial segregation, particularly in marriage."
Botham CGU Dissertation Grant Proposal

While the source does not exactly validate the categorical statement in my previous post it certainly validates the existence of a major discrepancy in the racial views of the churches. In the 1800s and early 1900s Protestant churchmen who would perform an interracial marriage were very rare in the US.

And yes, the views of the American churches also reflected the views of the Vatican.

This is indeed true, and it is surely related to the fact that Christianism does break away with any idea of a "chosen people".

Protestantism, on the other hand, adopts chosenitism as in its origins there is a judaisation through an increased relevance of the OT.

It is therefore not surprising that many Protestant churches subscribe to the idea of being God's Chosen People, and the descendents of such or such other Israelite tribe.

I'm actually amazed that you even get to eat pork. But there is little doubt that many Protestant churches are mentally (or ideologically) circumcised.

That adds to the list of your by now many fallacies.

The Catholic Church asserts that Judaism is valid and provides salvation to the Chosen people whereas mainstream Protestant Churches in Europe deny that Jews can reject Christ and be saved.

Which church is judaized?

It has not been in Spain, it has not been in Ireland, it has not been in France, it has not been in Croatia, it has not been in Serbia, it has not been in Russia, it has not been in Bulgaria, it has not been in Belarusia, it has not been in Poland, it has not been in... pretty much most of Europe.

Were you educated in a Jesuit school?

This is more of your fallacious arguments.

If there have been clashes between Rome and kings or emperors throughout history in Europe, the latter represented states (kingdoms, empires) and not nations.

Something that I'm sure that you were aware of it, since I do not have you for an ignorant. Therefore I must conclude that your distortion of equating states to nations to defame Catholicism --a distortion of the truth-- is ill-intentioned.

Where did you learn to distort the truth with such shameless?

The facts mentioned sum up the view Swedish (and later Finnish) historiography has of the Popes.

I did not refer to "clashes between states" but clashes between nations which desired liberty and the Catholic monarchs supported by the Pope.

The Catholic establishment exemplified by Metternich resented nationalism as much as liberalism. He described ethnic nationalism as a "disorder" which could cause a revolution tearing apart (IMO delegitimate) multinational states such as Austria-Hungary.

What would you know? I'm afraid that the ices had not yet retreated from Finland at that time.

For your information, if by the "imperialist state like Spain" you refer to the dominions in the Low Countries, that was a German issue in which Spain had no interest.

For your information, it was British Protestant Imperialism which opressed and attempted to anihilate the Irish nation: 1649-52: Cromwell\'s conquest of Ireland & The Plantations through modern times (An Gorta Mór: The Great Irish Famine ) and to this day.
As it was the Highlands Clearances: Culloden - The Jacobites
All Protestant backed attempts of genocide against European nations, with a distinctive Protestant flavour.

There are more. And many more if we add non European nations, only paralleled by the actions of the state of Israel in Palestina.

I wonder how many more falllacious statements are you still going to launch in the name of Protestantism, Lutheranism, Evangelism or whatever you wish to call it.

Austria-Hungary and the Catholics did actively oppose the formation of the German nation-state. While the loyalty of Catholics belongs to the Pope Martin Luther stressed obedience to the state.

The German Catholic Church has always been multicultural, the German Lutheran Church was nationalist. Although Hitler was a Catholic more Lutherans than Catholics voted for him.

BTW, Article 19 of the Austro-Hungarian constitution stated:
All races of the empire have equal rights, and every race has an inviolable right to the preservation and use of its own nationality and language. The equality of all customary languages ("landesübliche Sprache") in school, office and public life, is recognized by the state. In those territories in which several races dwell, the public and educational institutions are to be so arranged that, without applying compulsion to learn a second country language ("Landessprache"), each of the races receives the necessary means of education in its own language.

I don't like the concept of multicultural Catholic empires in which "all races have equal rights".

[Aptrgangr]

Originally Posted by Plethon

I don't approve race-mixing because it changes the biological composition of a nation and not because of some metaphysical inequality.

So mongrels have dignity but you do not like them because they change the biological composition?
Foreign races and their mongrel offsprings caus damage just becaus they are inequal.

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