Latin Mass - Yes or not?

[Erasmus]

For the Catholic members*:

Do you favor the return of the Tridentine mass?

*You can also vote here:
http://www.corriere.it/appsSondaggi/...dSondaggio=176

[Menydh]

I have included an option for the Spanish. The rite known as Mossarab or Visigothic. It is still used in cities like Toledo and Valencia on given days.

[Pirate]

Yes, I favour Tridentine mass.

[Marcus Marulus]

Yes. Not just in Latin language, but Tridentine rite in general.

[Pro Hibernia]

I know of only two Churches in the whole of Scotland that performs the Trinidine mass. So I couldn’t really say which I prefer, but I think I would prefer mass in Latin so have chosen ’Yes’. Being the inexperienced young Catholic that I am I am a little confused on what the difference between Trinidine mass and Novus Ordos mass really is and how important is it? Besides the obvious Latin elements (?) what difference does it make?

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Leipreachán

I know of only two Churches in the whole of Scotland that performs the Trinidine mass. So I couldn’t really say which I prefer, but I think I would prefer mass in Latin so have chosen ’Yes’. Being the inexperienced young Catholic that I am I am a little confused on what the difference between Trinidine mass and Novus Ordos mass really is and how important is it? Besides the obvious Latin elements (?) what difference does it make?

There's a huge difference, from the simple way it's conducted to the ethos to the theology behind it. The Novus Ordo is often called the Protestantised Mass - it dates back to the late 1950's - early 1960's.

Try attending a traditional Tridentine Mass and you'll find it something completely different from what you've seen before. For a start, you'll rarely see the priest's face.
He kneels facing the altar and the Eucharist, rather than sitting and standing facing the people with his back to the tabernacle as happens in the New "Mass".

My old parish priest recently was made a Canon after 50 years of service.
However, I've discovered that he's only been made one in name.
He doesn't have any increase in rank and doesn't get invited to any of the relevant meetings. I'm told this is because he insists on saying the Tridentine Mass every first Friday of the month and the bishop dislikes it.

What interesting times we live in when a priest is discriminated against by his bishop for saying Mass.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Milesian

There's a huge difference, from the simple way it's conducted to the ethos to the theology behind it. The Novus Ordo is often called the Protestantised Mass - it dates back to the late 1950's - early 1960's.

Excuse the off-topic.

What do you think of Opus Dei? My impression has always been that it follows very clearly a self version of the Protestant Ethic.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Leipreachán

I know of only two Churches in the whole of Scotland that performs the Trinidine mass. So I couldn’t really say which I prefer, but I think I would prefer mass in Latin so have chosen ’Yes’. Being the inexperienced young Catholic that I am I am a little confused on what the difference between Trinidine mass and Novus Ordos mass really is and how important is it? Besides the obvious Latin elements (?) what difference does it make?

Many words and expressions are different as well, it is not just question of the language.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Excuse the off-topic.

What do you think of Opus Dei? My impression has always been that it follows very clearly a self version of the Protestant Ethic.

Yes, you've asked me this question before.
To be honest, I don't know enough about Opus Dei to be able to give a fair opinion. I'm wary of misrepresentation and slander - especially againt Catholic institutions. you are well aware of various Black Myths which have been perpetrated throughout history. It was only a couple of centuries ago that the Jesuits were being accused of this and that and being forbidden in various countries. You know more about it than me, having known people involved. You don't seem to have a high opinion of them, however.

Do they really believe they can earn salvation through works alone?
I'd be extremely surprised if this was true, as it's such a glaring heresy to be tolerated by the Church. Is there not something more to it than this?

[Dux]

I don't know if I should have a word. Although not practicing I was raised in a catholic family, not very fond of practise too but still more than me. Like the old saying points out: "In deeds we see the faith".

I believe that the new mass is «protestantized» but still I can't see how the common people may be fond of a cryptic hermetic rite.

Maybe just a matter of translation would have been enough to reform the old rite.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Excuse the off-topic.

What do you think of Opus Dei? My impression has always been that it follows very clearly a self version of the Protestant Ethic.

http://forum.stirpes.net/catholicism...tradition.html

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Dux

I believe that the new mass is «protestantized» but still I can't see how the common people may be fond of a cryptic hermetic rite.

Whatever that phrase is meant insinuate, they are fond of the Tridentine Mass because it is orthodox in it's theology whereas the Novus Ordo teems with errors and dubious innovations. In short - they like the Tridentine because it is Catholic, the Novus Ordo is arguably otherwise.

Maybe just a matter of translation would have been enough to reform the old rite.

The reformers at Vatican II didn't want to just translate the Mass into the vernacular. They wanted to totally vandalise it and construct something in it's place. Aside from the fact that this was explicitly prohibited by the Bull Quo Primum Tempore under severe penalty, the results for the Church speak for themselves. Empty seminaries and convents, and aging clergy, falling attendences.
Some say that there is a growth in Traditionalist communities, however.

Clearly what the people wanted was not liberal innovation and novelty, but Catholicism & traditional morality all along.

This echoes the words of Pope St Pius X who said - "It is neither the innovators nor the revolutionaries, but the traditionalists who are the true friends of the people."

[Menydh]

No, I don't have a high opinion of them. But this is based not as much on popular stories (or black myths), as it is on direct, personal observation.

Since I was young, I've had Opus Dei not too far away from my family entourage. My mother was a super-numerary [member] of that protestant-like sect. Little wonder. Her mother, my grandmother, was a member of Acción Católica and non-religious lay member of the Order of the Carmelites. But there was much opposition at home, both from my father and myself. And she eventually left the Opus Dei.

I have many female friends educated in the private schools of Opus Dei, and there was a youth club right next to where I used to live. In fact, in my neighbourhood every other neighbour was a member. You could say that I lived a part of my life surrounded by them. Mind you, my most [in]famous moment may have been when I tried to seduce a friend, who she was already a numerary member!

But enough with personal stories. Let me quote this piece from a text of an apologetical of the Protestant Ethic, which I will not reproduce in full as there is enough nonsense in it to call for a cut:

If there is one religious tradition conventionally viewed as inimical to modern capitalism, it would be that of Iberian Catholicism. Yet out of its most conservative circles has come a movement which has played a crucial role in the move toward a market economy in Spain, and which may play a similar role in some other predominantly Catholic countries (such as the Philippines). It is Opus Dei. It originated in Spain in the 1920s and 1930s, allied to the most conservative wing of Spanish Catholicism. It was organized as a strictly hierarchical order, containing both priests and lay people, and has had as its particular focus the penetration of political and economic elites. It propagated a rigorously ascetic, quasi-monastic lifestyle, and adherence to strict doctrinal orthodoxy. Yet at the same time its mission was conceived as taking place in the world, not confined to monasteries or other ecclesiastical institutions. In other words, it rather closely resembled Weber's concept of "this-worldly asceticism", and his famous description of Protestantism as having "abolished the monasteries and turned the world into a monastery". From the beginning it was closely associated with the Franco regime. In the final years of this regime it attained great political prominence. Somewhere along the line its leadership decided that Spain should embark on a capitalist course. Opus Dei not only founded two prestigious business schools, but it used its influence within the government to induce market-friendly economic policies. Its religious mission in Spain has hardly been successful; in the wake of the Franco regime, Spain underwent a dramatic process of secularization, greatly weakening the status and influence of the Catholic church. But the economic success of Opus Dei has been brilliant in that, (this is another case supporting Weber's notion of unintended consequences) Opus Dei set out to make Spain into a suburb of Fatima, it succeeded in making Spain into a suburb of Brussels. (Our study of Opus Dei was summarized by Joan Estruch, Saints and Schemers: Opus Dei and its Paradoxes, 1995).

If you notice, the line of Opus Dei is inherently opposed to what's called here Iberian Catholicism. Something with which I agree wholeheartedly. However, their members did timidly pass themselves as patriotic, as an "individual choice", when they spoke to people like me. Well, this is clearly a wink that I was supposed to understand as that I would be "at home" with them. Which of course it wasn't true. But it wasn't a lie either, since the wink was not as clear as to be interpreted in such terms. I'm not sure if you follow me here.

Following with the text, the suspiciously similarities with Protestantism and its "Capitalist ethics" that are highlighted there, if you notice they weakened the strong spiritual guidance of the more Traditional Catholicism in Spain, as they gained terrain at the expense of Traditional Catholic institutions.

Further, it is right that the last years of General Franco's regime should be read in key of Opus Dei: the period of the Technocrats and the Lopez government, which eventually led the road to Transition in Spain, and its future consequences.

The one piece in this much complex jigsaw that I am not sure how to make fit in, is the one around the adscription of Admiral Carrero Blanco to Opus Dei. Maybe because I'm not looking into the right direction. But if the right direction is what I suspect that it might be, then there would be other pieces that would not fit in.

[Marcus Marulus]

I heard even that Aznar might be (or might have been in the past) member of Opus Dei?