Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church

[Silas]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...9-2397919.html


By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
THE Pope is taking steps to revive the ancient tradition of the Latin Tridentine Mass in Catholic churches worldwide, according to sources in Rome.
Pope Benedict XVI is understood to have signed a universal indult — or permission — for priests to celebrate again the Mass used throughout the Church for nearly 1,500 years. The indult could be published in the next few weeks, sources told The Times.
NI_MPU('middle');Use of the Tridentine Mass, parts of which date from the time of St Gregory in the 6th century and which takes its name from the 16th-century Council of Trent, was restricted by most bishops after the reforms of the Second Vatican Council (1962-65).
This led to the introduction of the new Mass in the vernacular to make it more accessible to contemporary audiences. By bringing back Mass in Latin, Pope Benedict is signalling that his sympathies lie with conservatives in the Catholic Church.
One of the most celebrated rebels against its suppression was Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who broke with Rome in 1988 over this and other reforms. He was excommunicated after he consecrated four bishops, one of them British, without permission from the Pope.
Some Lefebvrists, including those in Brazil, have already been readmitted. An indult permitting the celebration of the Tridentine Mass could help to bring remaining Lefebvrists and many other traditional Catholics back to the fold.
The priests of England and Wales are among those sometimes given permission to celebrate the Old Mass according to the 1962 Missal. Tridentine Masses are said regularly at the Oratory and St James’s Spanish Place in London, but are harder to find outside the capital.
The new indult would permit any priest to introduce the Tridentine Mass to his church, anywhere in the world, unless his bishop has explicitly forbidden it in writing.
Catholic bloggers have been anticipating the indult for months. The Cornell Society blog says that Father Martin Edwards, a London priest, was told by Cardinal Joseph Zen, of Hong Kong, that the indult had been signed. Cardinal Zen is alleged to have had this information from the Pope himself in a private meeting.
“There have been false alarms before, not least because within the Curia there are those genuinely well-disposed to the Latin Mass, those who are against and those who like to move groups within the Church like pieces on a chessboard,” a source told The Times. “But hopes have been raised with the new pope. It would fit with what he has said and done on the subject. He celebrated in the old rite, when Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.” The 1962 Missal issued by Pope John XXIII was the last of several revisions of the 1570 Missal of Pius V. In a lecture in 2001, Cardinal Ratzinger said that it would be “fatal” for the Missal to be “placed in a deep-freeze, left like a national park, a park protected for the sake of a certain kind of people, for whom one leaves available these relics of the past”. Daphne McLeod, chairman of Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, a UK umbrella group that campaigns for the restoration of traditional orthodoxy, said: “A lot of young priests are teaching themselves the Tridentine Mass because it is so beautiful and has prayers that go back to the Early Church.”
TRADITIONAL SERVICE
The Tridentine Mass is celebrated entirely in Latin, except for a few words and phrases in Greek and Hebrew. There are long periods of silence and the priest has his back to the congregation
In 1570, Pope St Pius V said that priests could use the Tridentine rite forever, “without scruple of conscience or fear of penalty”
Since the Second Vatican Council, the Tridentine Mass has been almost entirely superseded by the Mass of Pope Paul VI
Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who took the lead in opposing the reforms, continued to celebrate the old Mass at his seminary in Ecône, Switzerland, and formed a dissident group. He was excommunicated in 1988
The advantages of the Mass, according to the faithful, are in its uniformity and the fact that movements and gestures are prescribed, so that there is no room for “personalisation”

[Menydh]

Newspapers here have only mentioned that the Pope is trying to attract the Lefebvrian Traditionalists back into the the discipline of Rome. I don't know if this should take more moves than just restoring the Mass in Latin.

We could also speculate that he is up to something bigger, after this move and his recent speech which provoked Islamists. But I wouldn't put much faith on that.

[Saunion]

Oh no. This anti-pope's true colors have been shown for a long time now. He and his ilk hate the traditional church and have ran it into the ground. This is just a ridiculous attempt to lure traditionalists back into their fake Masonic controlled Catholic Church.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I don't know if this should take more moves than just restoring the Mass in Latin.

Although the Mass is a huge part, more than just the liturgy of the Mass changed. Theology was also touched upon at Vatican II including the replacement of Evangelism with Ecumencism (toleration of error & heresy), the removal of Catholicism as State Religion (denial of the Kingship of Christ), denial of infallible dogmas such as Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salus (which denies the Church's claim of being the true Church of Christ and puts it as just one of many possibile ways to Salvation and Truth - hence the abomination of Assisi. This is the condemned heresy of Religious Indifferentism), etc

As one Cardinal put it, Vatican II was the Church's own French Revolution.
What would be required would be more than a sarcastic special "indult" to celebrate a Mass which was declared valid for all time anyway, but a complete purging of the hierarchy from top to bottom. An Inquisition, no less.

[Erasmus]

Originally Posted by Saunion

Oh no. This anti-pope's true colors have been shown for a long time now. He and his ilk hate the traditional church and have ran it into the ground. This is just a ridiculous attempt to lure traditionalists back into their fake Masonic controlled Catholic Church.

Sedevacantist?

http://www.wandea.org.pl/bishop-pivarunas.html

[Milesian]

Hmmm...Sedevacantism is on shaky ground (and yes, I have read the arguments both in favour and against it).

A quick look at the flourishing numbers of sedevacantist groups reveals something unpleasant. There is only ONE Church, not a multitude of sects.
Anyone believeing contrary cannot be Catholic.

Neither St Paul or St Cyprian or even St Athanasius declared their Pope to be a false Pope even when they had major griviences and outbursts against them.

I'm afraid I have no authority to depose Popes unless I am to disregard Canon Law and institute my own set of ecclesiastical laws instead.
Sedevacantism must ultimately lead to a situation where it seems the Church must come to an end sooner rather than later (ie. look at how they have elected their own "Popes"....if they have even thought of that situation until now)

[Saunion]

Originally Posted by Milesian

A quick look at the flourishing numbers of sedevacantist groups reveals something unpleasant. There is only ONE Church, not a multitude of sects.
Anyone believeing contrary cannot be Catholic.

Neither St Paul or St Cyprian or even St Athanasius declared their Pope to be a false Pope even when they had major griviences and outbursts against them.

I'm afraid I have no authority to depose Popes unless I am to disregard Canon Law and institute my own set of ecclesiastical laws instead.
Sedevacantism must ultimately lead to a situation where it seems the Church must come to an end sooner rather than later (ie. look at how they have elected their own "Popes"....if they have even thought of that situation until now)

I don't see supportting these Judeo-Masonic anti-Popes as being very "Catholic". We who support the traditional church and it's teachings are the real ONE church. It was them who changed it for the worse. The Church is so rotten from the Jews and Masons that it can not be allowed to exist in it's current state. It must be converted back to it's original state. We here should all know the second Vatican Council set it up for the fall and it worked.

http://www.opusdeialert.com/index.htm
http://www.destroyfreemasonry.com/

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Saunion

I don't see supportting these Judeo-Masonic anti-Popes as being very "Catholic".

All Catholics are bound to obey the Pope in all things that are lawful.
In those things which ar enot, we do not.
As I said, there is no obligation to follow anyone into error.
However, we have no authority to depose Popes either.
Unless you support the methods of the Reformationists......but that would be simply substituting yourself for the Pope and ascribing to yourself powers that not even the Pope himself has.

We who support the traditional church and it's teachings are the real ONE church.

The Church is a visible, empirical organisation. This has always been the Catholic view from the time of the Primitive Fathers to the present day.
An invisible congregation of people sharing similar views is the "Church" according to the opinion of the Reformationists or other Schismatics, but never Catholics.

It was them who changed it for the worse.

Agreed.

The Church is so rotten from the Jews and Masons that it can not be allowed to exist in it's current state. It must be converted back to it's original state. We here should all know the second Vatican Council set it up for the fall and it worked.

Yes, but the methods must be according to the teachings and laws of the Church. What you propose is for the laity to simply sweep aside Canon Law (pre-Vatican II Canon Law) and institue your own methods. In other words, you are proposing to sweep aside Catholic laws and use un-Catholic methods n order to restore our Church. Tempting as that undoubtedly is, we must not fall into such despair. A Catholic solution must be sought, otherwise we will destroy the Church in our very efforts to save it.

http://www.opusdeialert.com/index.htm
http://www.destroyfreemasonry.com/

Yes, I have seen these and countless Traditionalist, Sedevacantist and Feenyite sites.

I am a Traditionalist but I rejected Sedevacantism as a legitimate option some time ago. I reject the reforms of Vatican II that are against the Faith, I oppose the Anti-Catholic policies that have issued from Rome since Vatican II. But if I am to remain true to that same religion, I cannot invalidly depose Popes in contravention of Canon Law.

Do you know the story of St Cyprian? He denounced Pope St. Stephen a public sinner and a heretic. St Athanasius also opposed Pope Liberius when he signed a semi-Arian document under duress. Even St Paul challenged St Peter "to his face" when he found him to be in error (it's in the N.T.)
Never once however, did they declare the Pope to be a false Pope and form schismatic churches against him.

They knew the extent of their powers and their limits

[Erasmus]

Traditionalists in communion with Rome:

http://www.fssp.org/en/presentation.htm

[Milesian]

I'm more inclined to the Feenyite's myself
Whether they are in Communion with Rome is a matter of some controversy, but they are certainly not Sedevacantist.

But really - who can argue with the theology of an Irish Jesuit?

[Erasmus]

[

 But really - who can argue with the theology of an Irish Jesuit? ;)

[/quote]

...or a Basque Jesuit... I know them