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Monday, March 20th, 2006
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Sedevacantism
Sedevacantism is a theological position of those traditional catholics who most certainly believe in the papacy, papal infallibilty and the primacy of Roman Pontiff, and yet do not recognize the last popes as true popes. The word sedevacantism is a compose of two latin words which together mean "the chair is vacant".
The sedevacantist position is founded on the Catholic doctrines and on the theological of St. Robert Bellarmine. Other sedevacantist positions is founded in the Bible (Acts) (?) These are the opinions of them. I'd like to know the opinions of other traditional Catholics of this site. 
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Monday, March 20th, 2006
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Re: Sedevacantism
I'll reply later when I have a little more time.
It's easy for many Catholics to dismiss Sedevacantists as Protestants, but in actual fact their position isn't without some logic and does carry some theological weight. However, I consider it as a very last resort. There are many problems inherent in Sedevacantism, and if the Sedevacantist is wrong then they are in a state of schism, which will result in the greatest of penalties as far as a the Catholic is concerned. I toyed with Sedevacantism for a while but in the end I could not make that leap. I remain a Traditional Catholic, but I do recognise the legitimacy of the post-Vatican II Popes even if I don't necessarily agree with them in certain areas.
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The traditions of the Irish people are the oldest of any race in Europe north and west of the Alps, and they themselves are the longest settled on their own soil - Edmund Curtis (A History of Ireland: From Earliest Times to 1922) The Irish are one of the most ancient nations that I know of at this end of the world, and are from as mighty a race as the world ever brought forth. For it is certain that Ireland hath had the use of letters very anciently and long before England; that they had letters anciently is nothing doubtful, for the Saxons of England are said to have their letters and learning, and learned men, from the Irish. - Edmund Spenser (writer, and British Government Official in Ireland, AD 1596). The renaissance began in Ireland seven hundred years before it was known in Italy. And Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland, was at one time the metropolis of civilisation. - Arsene Darmesteter, Professor of Old French and Literature Ireland can indeed lay claim to a great past; she can not only boast of having been the birthplace and abode of high culture in the fifth and sixth centuries . . . but also of having made strenous efforts in the seventh and up to the tenth century to spread her learning among the German and Romance peoples, thus forming the actual fountain of our present continental civilisation. - Heinrich Zimmer, Professor of Celtic and Sanskrit, Member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences
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Monday, March 20th, 2006
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Re: Sedevacantism
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Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006
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Re: Sedevacantism
The problem with these Sedevacantist "Popes" is that they have to first appoint their own cardinals (which they have no authority to do), their Cardinals then vote for the priest/monk/bishop in question to be Pope, and then declare themselves to be a validly elected Pope. It doesn't take a genius to see that doesn't really work.
Gregory XVII has the added disadvantage of being stark raving mad...and the others are even worse by being American j/k 
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The traditions of the Irish people are the oldest of any race in Europe north and west of the Alps, and they themselves are the longest settled on their own soil - Edmund Curtis (A History of Ireland: From Earliest Times to 1922) The Irish are one of the most ancient nations that I know of at this end of the world, and are from as mighty a race as the world ever brought forth. For it is certain that Ireland hath had the use of letters very anciently and long before England; that they had letters anciently is nothing doubtful, for the Saxons of England are said to have their letters and learning, and learned men, from the Irish. - Edmund Spenser (writer, and British Government Official in Ireland, AD 1596). The renaissance began in Ireland seven hundred years before it was known in Italy. And Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland, was at one time the metropolis of civilisation. - Arsene Darmesteter, Professor of Old French and Literature Ireland can indeed lay claim to a great past; she can not only boast of having been the birthplace and abode of high culture in the fifth and sixth centuries . . . but also of having made strenous efforts in the seventh and up to the tenth century to spread her learning among the German and Romance peoples, thus forming the actual fountain of our present continental civilisation. - Heinrich Zimmer, Professor of Celtic and Sanskrit, Member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences
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Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006
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Re: Sedevacantism
Gregor XVII? Wasn't that the one who had the see not far from Seville?
LOL! I'm not sure if he was a lunatic or a crook. I heared stories of him having sold some land in Heaven to someone to have a better house built once there. I believe that he was deported to America. Ok, maybe not, but he should have been. 
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'Dardanidae duri, quae uos a stirpe parentum prima tulit tellus, eadem uos ubere laeto
accipiet reduces. Antiquam exquirite matrem: hic domus Aeneae cunctis dominabitur oris, et nati natorum, et qui nascentur ab illis.'  We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. –Plato–
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Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006
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Re: Sedevacantism
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Wish I had though of that first 
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The traditions of the Irish people are the oldest of any race in Europe north and west of the Alps, and they themselves are the longest settled on their own soil - Edmund Curtis (A History of Ireland: From Earliest Times to 1922) The Irish are one of the most ancient nations that I know of at this end of the world, and are from as mighty a race as the world ever brought forth. For it is certain that Ireland hath had the use of letters very anciently and long before England; that they had letters anciently is nothing doubtful, for the Saxons of England are said to have their letters and learning, and learned men, from the Irish. - Edmund Spenser (writer, and British Government Official in Ireland, AD 1596). The renaissance began in Ireland seven hundred years before it was known in Italy. And Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland, was at one time the metropolis of civilisation. - Arsene Darmesteter, Professor of Old French and Literature Ireland can indeed lay claim to a great past; she can not only boast of having been the birthplace and abode of high culture in the fifth and sixth centuries . . . but also of having made strenous efforts in the seventh and up to the tenth century to spread her learning among the German and Romance peoples, thus forming the actual fountain of our present continental civilisation. - Heinrich Zimmer, Professor of Celtic and Sanskrit, Member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences
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Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006
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Re: Sedevacantism
I heared a few other stories. We had much fun with that at the time.
P.S. Why would you want to be Pope? As my favourite peripheral A-M I will make you Grand Inquisitor of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, and ... England! Much more fun! P.P.S. on second thoughts, Wales and Cornwall should not fall under your domains. I don't trust you that much. 
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'Dardanidae duri, quae uos a stirpe parentum prima tulit tellus, eadem uos ubere laeto
accipiet reduces. Antiquam exquirite matrem: hic domus Aeneae cunctis dominabitur oris, et nati natorum, et qui nascentur ab illis.' We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. –Plato–
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Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006
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Re: Sedevacantism
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The traditions of the Irish people are the oldest of any race in Europe north and west of the Alps, and they themselves are the longest settled on their own soil - Edmund Curtis (A History of Ireland: From Earliest Times to 1922) The Irish are one of the most ancient nations that I know of at this end of the world, and are from as mighty a race as the world ever brought forth. For it is certain that Ireland hath had the use of letters very anciently and long before England; that they had letters anciently is nothing doubtful, for the Saxons of England are said to have their letters and learning, and learned men, from the Irish. - Edmund Spenser (writer, and British Government Official in Ireland, AD 1596). The renaissance began in Ireland seven hundred years before it was known in Italy. And Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland, was at one time the metropolis of civilisation. - Arsene Darmesteter, Professor of Old French and Literature Ireland can indeed lay claim to a great past; she can not only boast of having been the birthplace and abode of high culture in the fifth and sixth centuries . . . but also of having made strenous efforts in the seventh and up to the tenth century to spread her learning among the German and Romance peoples, thus forming the actual fountain of our present continental civilisation. - Heinrich Zimmer, Professor of Celtic and Sanskrit, Member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences
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Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006
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Re: Sedevacantism
 Well, when I see such things, I understand sedevacantists. Don't you?
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"Their trumpets again are of a peculiar barbarian kind; they blow into them and produce a harsh sound which suits the tumult of war"
Full PM Box...
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Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006
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Re: Sedevacantism
I understand their disgust, but Sedevacantism bases itself on theology and cannon law, not just emotion.
That picture partly explains why I'm a Traditional Catholic, but it has little to say on Sedevacantism. Sedevacantism rests on the premise that a bad Pope can't be a real Pope. On the contrary, the Church itself acknowledges (and always has done) that there have been bad Popes but nowhere did it ever claim that mean they weren't real Popes. The only Anti-Popes have historically been those who were not validly elected, not anything relient on their personal character. I believe either Bellarmine or Suarez stated that for a Pope to lose his office, he would have to be found to have been a public heretic before his Papal election to stand any chance of invalidating his position. The problem with Sedevacantism is that it relies on the fallible laeity judging the Pope and deposing him as we see fit. To start with, the Church does not recognise the laeity to possess anything like that kind of authority. Thus, we are led into the doctine of Private Interpretation - a heresy based on rejecting the Church's authority and which was seen as one of the prime heresies driving the Reformation (in fact, it was an old heresy revived by Luther out of necessity due to the logical outcome of his rejecting Church authority and tradition). Sedevacantism walks a very dangerous line. I'm all for an end to liberal Novus Ordo "Catholicism", but I'm extremely reluctant to start giving myself supreme ecclesiastical authority and begin deposing Popes as I personally see fit.
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The traditions of the Irish people are the oldest of any race in Europe north and west of the Alps, and they themselves are the longest settled on their own soil - Edmund Curtis (A History of Ireland: From Earliest Times to 1922) The Irish are one of the most ancient nations that I know of at this end of the world, and are from as mighty a race as the world ever brought forth. For it is certain that Ireland hath had the use of letters very anciently and long before England; that they had letters anciently is nothing doubtful, for the Saxons of England are said to have their letters and learning, and learned men, from the Irish. - Edmund Spenser (writer, and British Government Official in Ireland, AD 1596). The renaissance began in Ireland seven hundred years before it was known in Italy. And Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland, was at one time the metropolis of civilisation. - Arsene Darmesteter, Professor of Old French and Literature Ireland can indeed lay claim to a great past; she can not only boast of having been the birthplace and abode of high culture in the fifth and sixth centuries . . . but also of having made strenous efforts in the seventh and up to the tenth century to spread her learning among the German and Romance peoples, thus forming the actual fountain of our present continental civilisation. - Heinrich Zimmer, Professor of Celtic and Sanskrit, Member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences
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Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006
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Riferimento: Re: Sedevacantism
Cannon Law? Hehe, Canon Law!
By the way, ever heard of the Cardinal Siri affair? Apparently he had been elected validly as a Pope but was somewhat coerced to resign. He already had accepted the Papacy with the name of Gregory XVII. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_Siri
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http://www.myspace.com/ederico
http://patriae-caritas.blogspot.com http://nazzjon.blogspot.com Via Enrico Mizzi, Roma. 
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Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006
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Re: Riferimento: Re: Sedevacantism
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It's intruiging but it's also pure conjecture. Furthermore, if true it presents a real problem for Catholicism (the same one that Sedevacantism ends up creating). In fact, so serious a problem is it that it means no less than the end of the Catholic Church. Basically, if Siri was the true Pope but was then forced to resign and have Roncalli take his place then that would mean that all the Cardinals since then will have been invalidly created, and thus they will not be true Cardinals. Eventually all the Cardinals created before Roncalli's illegitimate pontificate (ie. authentic Cardinals) will die and we will be left with a false Pope and false Cardinals. In such a situation, Apostolic Succession breaks down. Once Apostolic Succession breaks down, there is no more Catholic Church. However, a Catholic cannot believe such an event is possible. Christ said that His Church would be around until the end of time and that the Gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church. Now if the Siri Thesis is correct, it would mean that Christ was wrong. And if Christ was wrong, then Christ was also a liar. And thus Christianity itself woud be a sham. Thus, one can believe in Catholicism or the Siri Thesis.....but not both at the same time.
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The traditions of the Irish people are the oldest of any race in Europe north and west of the Alps, and they themselves are the longest settled on their own soil - Edmund Curtis (A History of Ireland: From Earliest Times to 1922) The Irish are one of the most ancient nations that I know of at this end of the world, and are from as mighty a race as the world ever brought forth. For it is certain that Ireland hath had the use of letters very anciently and long before England; that they had letters anciently is nothing doubtful, for the Saxons of England are said to have their letters and learning, and learned men, from the Irish. - Edmund Spenser (writer, and British Government Official in Ireland, AD 1596). The renaissance began in Ireland seven hundred years before it was known in Italy. And Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland, was at one time the metropolis of civilisation. - Arsene Darmesteter, Professor of Old French and Literature Ireland can indeed lay claim to a great past; she can not only boast of having been the birthplace and abode of high culture in the fifth and sixth centuries . . . but also of having made strenous efforts in the seventh and up to the tenth century to spread her learning among the German and Romance peoples, thus forming the actual fountain of our present continental civilisation. - Heinrich Zimmer, Professor of Celtic and Sanskrit, Member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences
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Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006
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Riferimento: Re: Riferimento: Re: Sedevacantism
Maybe Christ is here then, and we're at the end of the world? LOL
Joke apart, your reasoning makes sense, hadn't thought about it before.
__________________
http://www.myspace.com/ederico
http://patriae-caritas.blogspot.com http://nazzjon.blogspot.com Via Enrico Mizzi, Roma.
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Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006
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Re: Sedevacantism
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Papal history is genuinely fascinating stuff. Even more so is the theology behind the papacy, some of which you stated here. The claim to absolute moral authority while at the same time in effect exempting the beneficiaries of that claim to the very morality they are supposed to embody has always struck me as one of the most interesting wrinkles.< |
