National Museum of Wales goes Islamic!

[Milesian]

The problem here is that unlike most people here, Cymro is not an Ethnic Nationalist but rather a Cultural Nationalist.
Therefore, in his worldview there is a country called Wales which over time has developed a Welsh language and culture.
He wants independence for Wales and the Welsh. All well and good. The problem is his definition of who or what is "Welsh".
Thus if an English, German, Russian, Indonesian or an extraterrestrial were to get a piece of paper with Welsh citizenship, buy a house in Swansea, & learn to speak Welsh - he would consider them as Welsh as himself.

Ergo, he has no concept of Jus Sanguis, the notion of Natio or the continuity of the ethnic group.
Rather, culture is everything. the superficial is all.
To ape Welsh culture is to be Welsh.
To use a worn analogy - for Cymro, a dog born in a stable really is a horse.

Am I close? In order to have reasonable exchange of ideas requires an understanding of where the other is coming from

[Ferran]

Originally Posted by Cymro

Ferran, they are Welsh because that is what they see themselves as being, and like I said if a person who happens to be a Muslim (or anyother religion) is born in Wales and see themselves as Welsh then that is fine by me.

You didn't answer my question... if it was a quiz show now you would have 0 pounds.

[Cymro]

If an Indonsian moves to Wales, gets a piece of paper which says "I am Welsh" on it, and learns Welsh then they are Indonesian with Welsh citizenship (oh I'd love it if we could get one of those - Cititizenship that is not an Indonesian).

If that person then has Children born in Wales, and again respect Wales they are Welsh, or Welsh Indonesian if they wish. If they go to a Mosque, they are still Welsh.

One things certain, that Immigrant wil be showing a lot more respect to the Welsh culture than many fellow Welsh people who have been here for generation upon generation.

A friend of mine was born in London to Welsh parents. He moved back to Wales when he was 2, he regards himself as Welsh and takes part in the language and the culture. Who is anyone to tell him he is not? He certainly doesn't regard himself as English!


And Ferran, yes I did. Why are they Welsh ? Because that is what they feel in themselves. They where bron here, they don't speak the language but they do regard themselves as Welsh.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Cymro

If an Indonsian moves to Wales, gets a piece of paper which says "I am Welsh" on it, and learns Welsh then they are Indonesian with Welsh citizenship

Agreed.

If that person then has Children born in Wales, and again respect Wales they are Welsh, or Welsh Indonesian if they wish.

Wouldn't they just be Indonesians born in Wales?

If they go to a Mosque, they are still Welsh.

I don't think religion stops a person being Welsh. If you converted to Islam I would still consider you Welsh. It's their ethnic origins rather than their religion that prevents them being Welsh in my opinion.
They may be Welsh from a Statist point of view (citizens of the Welsh state), but not from an ethnic pov (their heritage does not lie with Wales or the Welsh people)

One things certain, that Immigrant wil be showing a lot more respect to the Welsh culture than many fellow Welsh people who have been here for generation upon generation.

Sure, not impossible at all.

A friend of mine was born in London to Welsh parents. He moved back to Wales when he was 2, he regards himself as Welsh and takes part in the language and the culture. Who is anyone to tell him he is not? He certainly doesn't regard himself as English!

No, but he is Welsh just sanguis. That is an unchangable fact and would continue to be unchanged through his descendants unles sof course his grandchildren shacked up with those "Welsh" Indonesians above

[Cymro]

No they wouldn't have to be Indopnesians born in Wales - if they regarded themselves as being Welsh, not one person should take that away from them.

I'm glad you agree with my comments that religion does not define a person's nationality - this is however what the author claimed, and this is what I attacked.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Cymro

No they wouldn't have to be Indopnesians born in Wales - if they regarded themselves as being Welsh, not one person should take that away from them.

And if I consider myself a Native American because I dress up as a brave and put dream-catchers around my home, you wouldn't take that from me either, right? I appreciate the sentiment, but I cannot change reality.
My origins are not with the Sioux, the Cherokee or the Apache no matter how much I might want it to be. My lineage belongs here on the other sid eof the world. My ancestors lved and died here. My family history is here, tied to this land and this people. Living somewhere else and adopting the customs of another cannot change what I intrinsically am.
Maybe you could make these Indoensians "honourary Welsh" as a token of hospitality and friendship. But you cannot seriously claim they are Brythonic Celts of the stock of Glendower.

I'm glad you agree with my comments that religion does not define a person's nationality - this is however what the author claimed, and this is what I attacked.

I disagree with his comments in this.
However, if he said that Islam is a religion alien and undesirable in Wales, I would agree. But the religion a person practises doesn't mean they stop being Welsh anymore than speaking Arabic & going to the local Mosque would make you a Saudi

[Cymro]

An odd comparison with Native Americans. I don't remember saying that all the said Indonesian had to do was buy a dafodil, wear a rugby shirt etc inorder to be Welsh! I do however remember saying that their children could be Welsh. And the same goes for you in Native American settlements, you would allways be Irish, but if you had children with a Native woman, your children could also call themselves Sioux etc.

Of Owain Glyndwr stock? Well, neither are most Welsh people. Are you related to Woolfe Tone then in order to be Irish? I have some English ancestors, am I therefore not Welsh?

I find your comment about Islam not being desireable frankly absurd. Who are you to tell it that it's undesireable? Really you sound like an old wife unhappy that two shinny faced men have moved in together next door. If they aren't doing any harm to you - and in my experiences most Muslims do not mean harm on anyone, they just wish to get on with their own lives what problem are they for you?

Many would find having a nightclub next door undesireable, many would find a landfill site undesirable, many find homosexualiry undesirable. But unless they are meaning harm to you what is the problem?

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Cymro

An odd comparison with Native Americans. I don't remember saying that all the said Indonesian had to do was buy a dafodil, wear a rugby shirt etc inorder to be Welsh!

But did you not basically say that as long as they respected the Welsh culture while living in Wales then you would consider them Welsh?

I do however remember saying that their children could be Welsh.

So by being born somewhere makes them something else, changes their biological make-up?
From a purely legal point of view I guess it's true.
But not from a historical/biological/ethnic point of view. Is an Afrikkaner a Zulu simply because he was born and lives on traditionally Zulu lands?
You are what yo are becaus eof your biological heritage, not because the land turns you into something. As previously said, a dog born in a stable remains a dog.

And the same goes for you in Native American settlements, you would allways be Irish, but if you had children with a Native woman, your children could also call themselves Sioux etc.

They could call themselves Klingons if they wanted, but the reality is they would be half-Sioux/half-Irish. To call them merely Sioux would be to ignore a full 50% of their make-up. They would be neither Sioux nor Irish but a new mixture of both

Of Owain Glyndwr stock? Well, neither are most Welsh people. Are you related to Woolfe Tone then in order to be Irish? I have some English ancestors, am I therefore not Welsh?

You have taken my comment out of context. I did not literally mean to attribute to a particular individual. No, I'm not of Wolfe Tone's stock AFAIK.
But I am of the stock of Niall of the Nine Hostages, of St Columba, etc
something that our "new guests" can't realistically claim.

I find your comment about Islam not being desireable frankly absurd. Who are you to tell it that it's undesireable? Really you sound like an old wife unhappy that two shinny faced men have moved in together next door. If they aren't doing any harm to you - and in my experiences most Muslims do not mean harm on anyone, they just wish to get on with their own lives what problem are they for you?

Many would find having a nightclub next door undesireable, many would find a landfill site undesirable, many find homosexualiry undesirable. But unless they are meaning harm to you what is the problem?

The head-in-the-sand, I'm-all-right-jack mentality.
Ok, let me ask you why Welsh independence is so important to you? so what if Wales simply became part of England? So what if the Welsh language died out? You could still live your life and raise your family, right?
So why be outraged?
You say you want to preserve the Welsh culture - but what business is it of yours what language people speak or what culture they cling to?

[Cymro]

But did you not basically say that as long as they respected the Welsh culture while living in Wales then you would consider them Welsh?

No, I said thay would be entitled to be here if they repected the language etc. My wife is Scottish, yet she supports and repects the culture and language of Wales. She will allways be Scottish because that is what she feels in herself.

So by being born somewhere makes them something else, changes their biological make-up?
From a purely legal point of view I guess it's true.
But not from a historical/biological/ethnic point of view. Is an Afrikkaner a Zulu simply because he was born and lives on traditionally Zulu lands?
You are what yo are becaus eof your biological heritage, not because the land turns you into something. As previously said, a dog born in a stable remains a dog.

No a Zulu can regard him/herself as being a Zulu if they are born in Dublin to Zulu parents - it depends on what they feel within that counts for me. Of corse the Zulu could also call themselves Irish if they wished and fel they where Irish given that is where they where born. They might see themselves as Irish of Zulu decent.

Using your logic are the White Afrkaans Dutch or can they be South African?

They could call themselves Klingons if they wanted, but the reality is they would be half-Sioux/half-Irish. To call them merely Sioux would be to ignore a full 50% of their make-up. They would be neither Sioux nor Irish but a new mixture of both

No not Klingon. Half Sioux Half Irish yes, I never claimed otherwise. They could see themselves more comfortable with the Sioux side though. My children will be half Welsh half Scottish, if we live in Scotland they'll still speak Welsh to me, and Gaelic, and English to their mother and her family. I feel strong about that.

You have taken my comment out of context. I did not literally mean to attribute to a particular individual. No, I'm not of Wolfe Tone's stock AFAIK.
But I am of the stock of Niall of the Nine Hostages, of St Columba, etc
something that our "new guests" can't realistically claim.

But does that make you more Irish? I can't clame any famous welsh nobleman or God or Saint etc as my ancestors, but I am still Welsh. I have 2 English great grandparents, I am still Welsh because that is how I regard myself, my genetic makeup is irrelevent to how my mind works and feels on these issues. I could be black but I'd still regard myself as Welsh. Colin Jackson, the Olympic Athlete is of Grenadian and Panamanian ancestory, ask him what he is and he'll tell you he's Welsh. Good for him!

The head-in-the-sand, I'm-all-right-jack mentality.

No it isn't !

Ok, let me ask you why Welsh independence is so important to you? so what if Wales simply became part of England?

It's part of England! Oh shit, I thought that act was repealed?

Oh, no it was and we aren't part of England. Thank god for that, you worried me then. We're part of the UK - as is England and Scotland and the little corner of Ireland. I want Welsh indepednence because I want Wales to take responsibility for its own desitny and not leave it in the hands of the UK which is failing us. I want to see Wales become a proud forward thinking country.

So what if the Welsh language died out? You could still live your life and raise your family, right?

NO I couldn't, Welsh is my first language. I can speak and write in English but I don't like too if I can help it. However I can speak Welsh to a black person, a blue person or a green with pink spots person if I wish. I don't regard race or genetic makeup as being essential to keep my culture and country alive.

So why be outraged?
You say you want to preserve the Welsh culture - but what business is it of yours what language people speak or what culture they cling to?

What do you mean by that? A Muslim can do all of those things, most Welsh don't go to Church or Chapel these days, so who are you or I to tell them they have to go to a particular place of worship?

[Carnyx]

Cymro, does it work this way as well?

A Welshman




A Peul




A pineapple



A leek

[Sergius]

Originally Posted by Cymro

religion does not define a person's nationality

In your opinion, what does define a person's nationality, then? Birthplace, citizenship?

[Susi]

*yawns, scratches eye*

I kept out of this for a while but I've decided just to respond to a few posts of Cymro's, since I'm taking a break from studying my French (of course this makes me so very French )

Originally Posted by Cymro

Saying "A Muslim can not be Welsh" is racist, and it's quite disgusting that certain people on here try and defend it. Islam is a religion, if a person is born in Wales they are Welsh, following Islam does not remove that place of birth.

Welsh as in truly Welsh-- no. Welsh on a little piece of paper-- yes. But what is paper when one gets down to it? Nothing. Because the Muslims, in most cases, usually stick to their own and never do anything with the culture of the country they have moved into. By Muslim, I refer to the Arabic peoples of the Middle East who follow the religion of Islam. Is that so hard to grasp? Place of birth isn't exactly a determinant of culture/ethnicity, is it? Because being born in Canada, I should be a Native person, shouldn't I?

I married a Scottish woman recently, she lives and works here in Wales and is learning Welsh - showing a lot more respect for my language than many Welsh people do. Using some of your bizarre ideas of Cultural Purity should we not have married and should I have just married a Welsh woman instead?

Congratulations on the marriage. Maybe you should waste less time on forums and more on your wife.

Well most people are too lazy to learn a language. This is the problem-- but we cannot really do anything about their laziness. Hey, maybe I'll learn Welsh.

Hum. I don't think you quite understand this "Idea of Cultural Purity", good sir. You see, the British Isles are really quite a mixture of only a few types (someone with better anthropolgical knowledge should be able to help..)... and it really is "one country" (ish) at the moment..

All this talk of some Cultural purity if frankly bizzare. I take it that all of you believe that you are 100% genetically Welsh, Irish, German, Croatian etc?

(See Anthropology Forums)

These are countries, but the "race" of a person is usually anthropological. So check them out.

Well I'm sure you'll be suprised to find that most of us have some links to other areas genetically. My great grandparents on one side moved to Wales from South East England and North West England. Does that make me in anyway less Welsh?

My grandmother lived in Canada had two kids, left one behind, left both fathers behind, took my mother to Manchester, my mother lived there until she moved to London and then moved further away to Towchester with my father who was born and raised in Northamptonshire. (I forgot to mention that his father lived in North Africa for a while whilst he was fighting Rommel or whatever his name is, I can't recall). They then moved later to Canada where they stayed first in the west part of the city then further west and then to the country.

I forgot to mention that my father's great-grandmother was Welsh. So she was more Welsh than your great-grandparents. NEHHH.

What does that make me then?

Does it hell!

Objection!

Originally Posted by Cymro

They would be what ever they regard themselves as being - can't they be British Hong-Kongese then? After all you can get a French Corsican, a French Guadelopean etc can you not? I would have thought those people would regard themselves as British first and foremost but that doesn't remove where they where born - Hong Kong.

So if I regard myself as being German I am German?

What the hell kind of logic is that? I guess I could be Germanic or something... :\

And 5 o' clock tea is not something any substancial percentage of the people of the UK do - I last saw it being done in the Irish Republic incidentally in a hotel in Dun Laoghaire.

I like my tea thank you very much.

Originally Posted by Cymro

Would I have fallen in love with an African or Asian? I dont know - I fell in love with a Scottish one instead - not because she was Scottish but for all sorts of reasons.

So it's really ambiguous to say. You don't know. So you could, you could not. Do you find such people attractive?

Because I put little importance on some sort of Purity of Culture I am therefore Ailien to this site? Well I was invited on to the site from another site. I signed up and one of the first things I came across was this thread, glorifiing the BNP's stance on the Islamic Exhibition at the National Museum.

Well it is a "Nationalist European Forum"... I mean ... that's the title... didn't.. you.. see.. it?

BNP always reminds me of these biscuits with chocolate in the middle called "BN"...

Now is this some sort of Racist love in? I hope not. Is this full of people with very little knoweldge of Islam, Immigration, National Musemum - definatly!

What is a "love in"?

If anyone touches me, I swear....

I have very little knowledge of Islam, of course! I go to school with a Muslim! I ask him questions all the time when I have something to ask. How foolish of you to assume this! He is what we call a "moderate Muslim". I read books too. Fascinating, isn't it, Islam?

But not European.

Immigration? Well if you look at everyone in my country... we're an "immigrant country" (per se). Probably one of the #1 places in the world to come. So how do I know nothing of immigration!?

My question is: Do you work for the museum?

Originally Posted by svin

You use word "racist" in every sentence, that's annoying.

It reminds me of the "anti-racism" assembly we have at school that continues to ignore racism against people who look like me. Having "Hey whitey!/insert racial slur here" shouted after me when I'm walking on the street or any other kind of derogatory language is racist too. So there, Cymro.

Originally Posted by Cymro

So are Racists. If they make such comments they can expect a response. Easy as that.

And by expressing a preference for my own culture over another, I am racist? For expressing a preference for males of European stock, I am racist? RIDICULOUSITY!

Originally Posted by Cymro

If an Indonsian moves to Wales, gets a piece of paper which says "I am Welsh" on it, and learns Welsh then they are Indonesian with Welsh citizenship (oh I'd love it if we could get one of those - Cititizenship that is not an Indonesian).

So if I right down "I am Spanish" on a bit of paper and move to Spain, I am Spanish? Maybe it would work better if I wrote "Yo soy espanol"? And then learned Spanish?

One things certain, that Immigrant wil be showing a lot more respect to the Welsh culture than many fellow Welsh people who have been here for generation upon generation.

People don't know what they have until it is g-o-n-e.

A friend of mine was born in London to Welsh parents. He moved back to Wales when he was 2, he regards himself as Welsh and takes part in the language and the culture. Who is anyone to tell him he is not? He certainly doesn't regard himself as English!

Because the Welsh and the English are completely dissimilar (and if you didn't catch that.. </sarcasm>)

Originally Posted by Cymro

No they wouldn't have to be Indopnesians born in Wales - if they regarded themselves as being Welsh, not one person should take that away from them.

Fine. I regard myself as having the right to execute whom I chose. You can't take that away from me.

Originally Posted by Cymro

An odd comparison with Native Americans. I don't remember saying that all the said Indonesian had to do was buy a dafodil, wear a rugby shirt etc inorder to be Welsh! I do however remember saying that their children could be Welsh. And the same goes for you in Native American settlements, you would allways be Irish, but if you had children with a Native woman, your children could also call themselves Sioux etc.

Ever met a Native American? They're effing ANAL about who they let into their tribe. Half, fine. Quarter, fine. Eigth? Maybe not. You can't call yourself Native without having a certain amount of Native blood here. If you are less than the blood-cut off, then you are not Native. Even if you live there.

If they aren't doing any harm to you - and in my experiences most Muslims do not mean harm on anyone, they just wish to get on with their own lives what problem are they for you?

Same here but also I find they do not integrate into the majority of the culture very well and insist on having their own culture being respected-- one cannot forget that they are not the majority. It is called a majority for a reason.

No not Klingon. Half Sioux Half Irish yes, I never claimed otherwise. They could see themselves more comfortable with the Sioux side though. My children will be half Welsh half Scottish, if we live in Scotland they'll still s