British in Brittany

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

Good Lord no. All of Britain up to the Antonine Wall [across the Clyde Forth belt] was Brythonic speaking,

That's probably true. What I meant is that the Scots had already settled in the west and established Argyll/Scottish Dal Riada when Britons pushed into southern Scotland under Anglic pressure. Of course, the tribes that were already there were likely Brythonic Celts themselves.

and while it's the done thing to say the jury's out on the Picts, it's a cert that they were British speaking too.

Is it? I'm of the opinion that the Picts were Brythons too, and have argued against those who claim that they were some seperate non-Celtic (even non-IE) people.
But I reserve saying it is a certainty until I see indisputable proof. Do we have it?

They were just less Romanised, and with some archaic social practices perhaps deriving from preCeltic times.

That's probably the case. Of course, the Picts were present in Ireland too where the Gaels called them the Cruthine. We read about them in the ancient Irish sagas, where Cruthine tribes such as the Galeoin had sent troops to support Queen Maeve's invasion of Ulster. Interestingly, there is no indication that they spoke a different language to the rest of the Irish despite some sense that they were in someway distinct. In such case, perhaps they were Gaelicised Brythons? Or maybe more controversally, they were Picts who hadn't become Brythonised (recalling that the Irish sagas state that the Cruthine first arrived in Ireland and were then sent to Alba by the Gaels who refused them land to settle on)

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Milesian

That's probably true. What I meant is that the Scots had already settled in the west and established Argyll/Scottish Dal Riada when Britons pushed into southern Scotland under Anglic pressure.

Where are you getting this story of 'new' Britons coming in, displacing older ones from??? I've never seen any indication of such a thing.
In fact, quite the opposite. THe Race of Coel seem to have sprung from some sort of client kingdom NORTH of the Wall, as do the Cuneddings of Gwynedd. By this, the older more traditional, less Romanised, aristocrats of the north were in the best position to take over the southern portions of Britannia once ROman authority left.
THe only thing halfway approaching your scenario is the story of how Gwenddoleu of the Coeling house of Caer Efrawg [York] attempted to carve out a kingdom in the region of Dumfriesshire. But this was the result of internecine British dynastic struggles, not the clash of Celt and German.
SEE HERE for some very good reading on the matter;
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/institut...pns/watsdg.htm

Of the history of Galloway and Dumfriesshire - the land of the Novantae and the Selgovae - in the centuries following the Roman evacuation we have but little definite knowledge. That the district remained British may be taken as a matter of course: names such as Ochiltree prove that here too, as in Lothian, the old British language passed into its Welsh stage. (1) It may also be reasonably assumed that before it came under the dominion of the Angles at some time in the seventh century it was ruled by native princes, but who these were, is rather a problem.
In the latter part of the sixth century Urien of Rheged and his sons formed the bulwark of the Britons against the pressure of the Angles. After the death of Urien and his son Owein their place in the leadership was filled by Aedán of Dál Riata; it would seem that among the native ruling families there was no one left capable of making effective resistance. Aedán's defeat at Degsastan was followed by the Anglic conquest of Lothian and Galloway, not, however, of Strathclyde.

So far, apart from the broch-builders of the Wigtown coast, we have found no real trace of Picts in Galloway; we come now, however, to something definite. Certain English chroniclers, who wrote in Latin, repeatedly mention the Picts of Galloway, mostly in connection with the period of the battle of the Standard in 1138. Richard of Hexham, writing before 1154, speaks of the Picts who are commonly called Galwegians; he himself regularly calls them Picts, and the character he gives of them is of the worst. Reginald of Durham, in the latter half of the same century, makes the very interesting statement that Kirkcudbright is in the land of the Picts, and that the people there speak the language of the Picts - the language of Galloway at that time being of course, mainly at least, Gaelic. In his Life of St. Kentigern, written about 1190, Jocelin mentions 'the land of the Picts now called Galweithia.' Other English chroniclers of the same period, however, use the term 'Pict' in its usual denotation, and style the Galwegians 'Galwenses.' The term used in all charters of David i. is Galwenses, Gawenses, etc. No Scottish or Irish chronicle, [178] so far as known to me, makes mention of Picts in Galloway. The short and easy way of dealing with the matter would be to refuse altogether to accept the statements of these English outsiders, m indeed the late Dr. Macbain was at one time inclined to do. Latterly he somewhat modified his view, but I think he always regarded the Picts of Galloway as one of what he used to call 'the three frauds of Scoto-Celtic history,' and in that, in the main, he was right. The population of Galloway was never Pictish, if by Picts we mean the real Picts - the early tribes of the far north of Scotland. Nor yet was it ever Pictish in the sense that it at any time came under Pictish rule or hegemony; it never formed part of Pictavia. Nevertheless there was ground for the statement, and Galloway tradition throws an entirely new light upon it.
Dr. Trotter, in the valuable books which he called Galloway Gossip, mentions and describes at some length, a certain 'breed' among the Galwegians who were called 'Creenies'; they were reckoned 'foreigners,' and were considered to be descendants of the Irish 'Picts.' Most of them were in the Rinns. Now 'Creenie ' is plainly Cruithnigh, the plural of Cruithneach, and nothing is more likely, one may say certain, than that the 'Creenies' were immigrants from the Cruithnean part of Ulster, facing Galloway. To the English chroniclers the terms 'Cruithnigh' and 'Picti' were synonymous, so they naturally used the latter in Latin. But seeing that these 'Creenies ' formed only a part of the population, there remains the question why the Galwegians as a whole were called Picti by some at least of the English writers. The tradition preserved by Dr. Trotter gives the answer, and indicates that it was not by way of compliment. The 'Creenies,' he informs us, were also called 'Gossocks.' In the name Gos-patrick and other names of persons, gos represents Welsh gwas, a servant - 'servant of Patrick '; Gosmungo, 'servant of Mungo,' and so on. In the Book of Llandaf a certain cleric bears the name of Guassauc, 'servant.' As a common noun gwasog means 'a servile person, a person in a servile condition,' and it is this term which has been preserved in [179] Galloway tradition as another name for the 'Creenies.' It was the name by which they were known among the British population and it indicates their status in the community. Far from owning the soil, the so-called Picts of Galloway were serfs of the Britons or at best rent-paying vassals: when applied to the Galwegians as a whole the name was a term of opprobrium. (44) In Ireland the Cruithnigh were vassals of the Gael.
Though we have no means of knowing at what precise period these Cruithnigh came to Galloway, it is evident that they came when Welsh was still spoken there. Their own language at the time of their migration was certainly Gaelic.

Is it? I'm of the opinion that the Picts were Brythons too, and have argued against those who claim that they were some seperate non-Celtic (even non-IE) people.
But I reserve saying it is a certainty until I see indisputable proof. Do we have it?

NOt as such, but maybe I can get back to you on that one. It's a matter for toponymists, really. ABERdeen, etc.

That's probably the case. Of course, the Picts were present in Ireland too where the Gaels called them the Cruithne. We read about them in the ancient Irish sagas, where Cruithne tribes such as the Galeoin had sent troops to support Queen Maeve's invasion of Ulster.

Obviously Gauls.

Interestingly, there is no indication that they spoke a different language to the rest of the Irish despite some sense that they were in someway distinct. In such case, perhaps they were Gaelicised Brythons?

That's the best bet. The fir Domnain are the best example - Dumnonii of Devon, and Damnonii of Scotland.
I have read linguistic discussions where a Brythonic P Celtic intermediary has been invoked to explain a particular Irish deity's name. But my memory's a sieve! All I retain is the notion of having been convinced of summat!

Or maybe more controversally, they were Picts who hadn't become Brythonised (recalling that the Irish sagas state that the Cruithne first arrived in Ireland and were then sent to Alba by the Gaels who refused them land to settle on)

Mediaeval mythoethnology always requires that some folk ARRIVED from somewhere else [usually an area known to Classical writers], and makes no provision for indigenous fellers who've been sat here since the ice sheets.
Lots of Irish scela talk about the time of Conchobor Mac Nesa and include anachronistic scenes of battles with Saxons and Norsemen. Don't expect TOO much from these sources, but simply be grateful that the old traditions were written down in any form.

[Alcide]

I dont mind British in Brittany as long as they respect us (and obviously they do...for now). I would even rather British here than Southern French from Azur Coast or Marseille

[Gil]

Originally Posted by Alcide

I dont mind British in Brittany as long as they respect us (and obviously they do...for now). I would even rather British here than Southern French from Azur Coast or Marseille

Why? Anything particular you don't like about southern french? (just asking)

[Alcide]

Yes their mentality and their behavior (why do you think Mafia is at its strongest in their area, including Corsica)

[Youenn]

Anglo-Breton friendship

http://drapeauxbretagne.canalblog.co..._bretonne.html

[Carnyx]

Ho, my eyes!

English people and some others are to blame for that raise of prices in the sector of real estate ; since they settled en masse on the continent, locals can't find cheap houses and the cost of life always goes up.

[Milesian]

Anglo-Breton friendship?

Please call Mynydd here to explain.....

[Menydh]

Didn't they [the anglo-saxons] do something similar in Britannia.. before conquering it? Then, many Britons left for Britanny. Where will the Bretons go this time?


I hereby prophesy the Return of Artorius, Lord of the Prydyn...

Keep Prydain & Breizh Tidy!




Throw Tramps Out Of The Parks!

[Milesian]

You do know that the King Arthur story is actually Gaelic in origin, right?

[Menydh]

Mileasian?

[Milesian]

Watch it, you know where the Mileasians came from before Ireland

[Batzec]

They are supporters of Zapatero's alliance of civilizations or it could be Stockholm syndrome as well.

[Youenn]

Today English people do not represent a real danger for us Bretons, which does not mean that we forget that our closest relatives are the Welsh and the Cornish. Today our real problem, apart of course from the non European immigrants, are the French (or more generally people from the rest of the "hexagon").

We estimate that there are about 16000 residents of English origin in Brittany, who generally speak no Breton (bad news), but also no French (better news). Of course they tend to live within their own closed community, but they do not necessary label us "French", at least not "true French". The proof is that they have created a Breton-English news magazine, Breton-English organisations etc.

In comparison, I know that in the Nantes province (Bro Naoned), there are overall 25% (250.000) of non-Bretons, mostly coming from other parts of the "hexagon". In the Breton capital, about 50% of the population is non-Breton. In the Vannes province (Bro Wened) the coast is full of French people, believe me this is a real invasion! For them Brittany is merely a part of ancient Gaul and the Breton language nothing more than a dialect, a "patois", of the old Gaulish tongue (which is totally untrue). And for them our capital Nantes is no longer part of Brittany, and our national struggle is trivial and in the best case "interesting".

Given the history of the British Iles I perfectly understand that some people have a negative prejudice against English settlement in Brittany, but, to tell the truth, apart from our closely related Celtic brothers and sisters, the English are from all the immigrant the ones who show much respect towards our identity and culture.

[Batzec]

Invaders are always unwelcome, and this includes a State that ignores the multiethnic autochtonous reality of France, but fills it with Africans and muslims; considering them so French (and Breton) as ethnic people of France.

You know: the Jacobine state: one language, one thought and one (mixed) race...