East-Baltids and the alleged Lappoid/Mongoloid admixture

[Carnyx]

I thought Baltids and West Baltids were the same.

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

I thought Baltids and West Baltids were the same.

Westbaltids are closer to the Cromagnid-Nordoid spectrum than Baltid proper which is more reduced, borealised, infantilised in comparison. One could see Westbaltids being closer to the original Cromagnoid elements out of which Baltids proper come up.

[Tennyson]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Nordid (all leptodolichomorphic Nordid variants included): ~30

Well, we are more Nordic and less infested with immigrants than most other European countries so prospects are good for out national development.

What are the proportions of various Nordic variants in Finland in your estimation?

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Tennyson

Well, we are more Nordic and less infested with immigrants than most other European countries so prospects are good for out national development.

What are the proportions of various Nordic variants in Finland in your estimation?

For that I can't even make a reasonable, though still wild (like above) guess, because (to name just some reasons):

-West/Skando- and Eastnordids are by racial specialisation closely related and there is no clear border between them
-Since most Nordid variants in Finland are somehow mixed, its even harder to distinguish the variants.

However, in general I would assume that Eastnordid variants predominate with the exception of those areas with heavy Scandinavian/Germanic influences rather than Baltic region Nordic (Corded and related) variants.

Not to forget, there is data which can be interpreted if its about the distinction Nordid - Osteuropid or classic Europid and Lappoid influenced/Mongoliform tendencies, but I dont know of a good base for making a clear distinction between West- and Eastnordid in Finland. Clear is, the Western Nordid variants are mostly "Hallstatt", classic Skandonordid rather than "Keltic", Nordatlantid etc.

[Tennyson]

So, Agrippa. What's your conclusion about Lappoid/Mongoloid admixture in Finnish East-Baltics? Did my genetic arguments convince you?

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Tennyson

So, Agrippa. What's your conclusion about Lappoid/Mongoloid admixture in Finnish East-Baltics? Did my genetic arguments convince you?

Well, Lappoid and direct Mongoloid admixture is not the same, but Lappoid influences being definitely at work in Eastbaltids. One can just argue that the Lappoid element being not of the same kind of the much more Mongoliform extreme Lappid examples. However, I dont see a real genetic proof so far. Again, I might argue about the haplogroup N too, which seems to be at least no clearly classic Europid one.

[Tennyson]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Well, Lappoid and direct Mongoloid admixture is not the same, but Lappoid influences being definitely at work in Eastbaltids. One can just argue that the Lappoid element being not of the same kind of the much more Mongoliform extreme Lappid examples. However, I dont see a real genetic proof so far. Again, I might argue about the haplogroup N too, which seems to be at least no clearly classic Europid one.

Haplogroup N is simply the original Finnic and it is also found in low frequencies in Mongoloid peoples because of admixture. The original Finns were completely within the classic Europid range.

If Finns really have Lappoid admixture could you explain why it does not show in the DNA tree I previously referred to? You previously only commented that such a tree is not of particular value in the determination of the racial character of a people (f.e. Sardinians) but admixture should be apparent in it.

[Aleksis]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

You know why I consider such trees largely worthless? Because they put Sardinians further away from "Europeans" (without further distinction!) than North Africans (!). Its obvious that this is simply the result of genetic drift and isolation and without significance for racial relations, since Sardinians are, if looking at racial as well as genetic - more specific - traits, very European and Europid in character.



One has not to be non-Europid to be "less Europid", since even if being mixed as well as deviating by racial specialisation, one can still be (at least predominantely) Europid, as are all Finns. But of course, they are not all to the same degree Europid, as one can see if comparing these two images which were posted on another board:



About the schoolclass: Most are rather Osteuropid ranging from Westbaltid over Baltid to Eastbaltid and Lappoid.

Interesting that the darker are more Europid than the lighter ones with some extremes being represented by:

Strongest Europid (and progressive)
Left above: Cromagnid/Westbaltid-Nordid, Eastnordid with minor Baltid and possible Pontid influences
2nd from right in the 3rd row: Cromagnoid - Atlanto-Nordid of some sort
vs.
3rd from right above: Eastbaltid
Middle-1st right: Wolgid (?)/Lappid-Nordid (?), looks exotic
1st row, 1st and 2nd from right: Eastbaltid

3rd row, 1st from right looks Baltid (very Baltised) without Lappoid influences.

3rd row, 3rd from left is a good example for Eastnordid-Eastbaltid recombinations with the first being rather dominant.

The incidences of epicanthic folds, strong subcutaneous fat is (for me) surprisingly high.

Strong contrast with this group of men which is pred. Eastnordid (progressive classic Europids):


More intermediate between the first and second picture are these people, with variants of Eastnordid to Baltid proper (not Eastbaltid nor Lappoid being as strong as in the schoolclass, all clearly Europid without a doubt):


By all reasonable standards the degree of Europid character being lowest in certain individuals of the schoolclass for reasons we could discuss, but the contrast with classic Europids (Aurignacoid and Cromagnoid Europid forms) is clear.



In their vast majority Finns are Europids, with many classic Europid and progressive variants, but as the schoolclass examples shows, there are deviating tendencies being present, even though they dont leave (as a rule at least) not the Europid wider variation which includes Eastbaltids and mostly even Lappids though they are already transitional to Mongoloids partly.



First they aren't and secondly by racial standards they aren't for sure. They are in the wider Europid variation which can include certain deviations from classic means always, but individual variants are borderline and as a whole they are "less Europid" (in a typological sense) than lets say Nordid, Dalofaelid, Dinarid, Mediterranid, Iranid etc.

Eastbaltids belong to the North Eastern European variation, so there is no special reason to have any problem with this phenotype, though its clear if they would spread at the expense of classic Europid forms I would consider it being a problem, vice versa not.

The picture of the schoolclass...I wonder, are they cauasoids?

[Aleksis]

Originally Posted by Tennyson

Yes but that DNA tree certainly is useful as far as admixture is concerned. If Finns were mixed with Lapps or Mongoloids their genotype would certainly be farther away from typical Europeans. That's not the case and therefore the East-Baltid racial traits are not derived from admixture with non-Europids (Lapps or Mongoloids).

The resemblance of Lapps to Finns is caused by gene flow from Finns to Lapps, not the other way around. Historical records support this as Finns used to use Lapps as slaves. While the sexual habits of men were lawless women did not bear children to Lappish men.

According to Niskanen Finns (and the Saami!) are racially no different from other Indo-Europeans and have no distinctive traits (like epicanthic fold).


http://www.mankindquarterly.org/samp...ccorrected.pdf



These two pictures are more representative of the people I see on the street on daily basis, IMO:

Northern Finland (Oulu):


Forssa, Tavastland:



It's simply outrageous to say that Iranids are more Europid than East-Baltids. In popular estimation Arabid-influenced Iranids aren't even "White".

I have met some extraordinarily intelligent Finnish people of Osteuropid racial type which is exemplified by Fischer:


I find this blonde-haired, weak-chinned Osteuropid type very progressive.


Physical attractiveness is rather subjective and of secondary importance, IMHO.
I am more concerned of the socioeconomical implications of racial demographics.

Finland and other Scandinavian nations are economically at a very similar level and I fail to see how the East-Baltic element would hinder the development of Finland or other nations in which it is present.

The only White racial type which is possibly slightly intellectually inferior to others is the Dinaric which is evidenced by the low national IQ of e.g. Serbia. Dinarics refugees from Albania cause a lot of problems in Scandinavia and look racially foreign.

That picture from Oulu, on the girls! They are not caucasoids? Not a chance?

[Vepsä]

East-baltids and lappoids are NOT the same. East-baltids and mongoloids are NOT the same. Lappoids and mongoloids are NOT the same.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Aleksis

That picture from Oulu, on the girls! They are not caucasoids? Not a chance?

Is that a question or an assertion?