Variation inside the Osteuropid type

[Agrippa]

1. Furthermore Osteuropid is a rather wide term and I can quote what German anthropologists say about the variation:
(translation)
"The Wepsen in the Balticum have a low height, have light hair and a concave noses with high roots, whereas the Karelians are dark pigmented. The Finns in the South West of the land have a mesocephalic head and are lighter than Norwegians or and Swedes; the nose root is to 40 percent high, 37 percent of the noses are concave, and on the upper eye lid is in the most cases a small fold. Letts and Ests have few pigment too, but brachycephalic individuals can be seen more often.
The Lithuanians are close to the Letts, but have an even rounder skull and darker pigmentation. All the mentioned tribes and nations experienced the "Baltisation": Even in the Proto-Neolithikum the Balticum was inhabited by narrow faced long skulls, but even in the Neolithicum round skulls showed up which had similarities to Asiatic forms with a flattened facial bone structure. From this time on begins the brachycephalisation in this areas, the Baltisation.
Some people suggest that the neolithic brachycephalic form, the Danic Borreby-typus influenced the Baltic people.
The West Baltic people differ from the Eastern Balts with their higher stature.

The appearance of the Osteuropids in the Russian areas is basically defined by 3 types:
A side form of the North Western Osteuropids is the Waldai-type. He can be distinguished as a moderately brachycephalic type from the mesocephalic Riasaner type. Both types, which are named as the "Eastern European type" by Bunak, have a weaker face profile in the direction of the Mongolids with a deeper nose root.
Whereas in White Russia lives a higher statured, taller human type with a smaller head length and higher head breadth, with a low, broad face and less light eyes and hair.

Everything is from Georg Glowatzki, Die Rassen der Menschheit - Entstehung und Ausbreitung

2. G. Friese about the eastbaltic race in a study 1936 (ostbaltische, hell-ostische Rasse) = translated:

This race is strongest in the North East of Europe, in Russia. But you can find this race as well from Poland to the Eastern regions of Germany, from the Carpathians to lower Austria, from there to Slovenia, the Serbs and the Albanians.
Body height and build are essentially the same as that of the Alpine (ostisch) race. The ostbaltic human is of stout build, stumpy and short legged.
The head is in relation to the lengths very broad, so you can speak about roundheadedness (brachycephaly).
The face is coarse. The nose is often upwards tilted.
The distance between the eyes is big.

3) Next is from Vogel, Christian: Menschliche Stammesgeschichte - Populationsdifferenzierung. Biologie in Stichworten, V Humanbiologie. Kiel 1974, S. 136.
Osteuropaeischer oder "slawischer" Typus (Osteuropide) = translated.

Stature: middle height, of stout build, relative short legs.
Head and face: in relation to the Nordid type head shorter (brachycephal), broader and somewhat more angular, broadboned face, zygomas protrusive, very protrusive on the sides, shallow root of the nose, not so strong more concave nose with broad and round tip, swelling nostrils.
Chin low and not very prominent, broad mouth, often wide eye distance with a little bit oblique lids.
Hairs: Thin, predominant brown, in the North ashblond.
Skin: fair, light pigmented.
Eyes: brown, in the North light grey too.

Diffusion same as G. Friese said.

[Ross]

1. Furthermore Osteuropid is a rather wide term and I can quote what German anthropologists say about the variation:
(translation)
"The Wepsen in the Balticum have a low height, have light hair and a concave noses with high roots, whereas the Karelians are dark pigmented. The Finns in the South West of the land have a mesocephalic head and are lighter than Norwegians or and Swedes; the nose root is to 40 percent high, 37 percent of the noses are concave, and on the upper eye lid is in the most cases a small fold. Letts and Ests have few pigment too, but brachycephalic individuals can be seen more often.
The Lithuanians are close to the Letts, but have an even rounder skull and darker pigmentation. All the mentioned tribes and nations experienced the "Baltisation": Even in the Proto-Neolithikum the Balticum was inhabited by narrow faced long skulls, but even in the Neolithicum round skulls showed up which had similarities to Asiatic forms with a flattened facial bone structure. From this time on begins the brachycephalisation in this areas, the Baltisation.
Some people suggest that the neolithic brachycephalic form, the Danic Borreby-typus influenced the Baltic people.
The West Baltic people differ from the Eastern Balts with their higher stature.

The appearance of the Osteuropids in the Russian areas is basically defined by 3 types:
A side form of the North Western Osteuropids is the Waldai-type. He can be distinguished as a moderately brachycephalic type from the mesocephalic Riasaner type. Both types, which are named as the "Eastern European type" by Bunak, have a weaker face profile in the direction of the Mongolids with a deeper nose root.
Whereas in White Russia lives a higher statured, taller human type with a smaller head length and higher head breadth, with a low, broad face and less light eyes and hair.

Everything is from Georg Glowatzki, Die Rassen der Menschheit - Entstehung und Ausbreitung

So CEEs, Valdaics (Russian and Belarussian), West-Baltids and East-Baltids are all of the same "Ost-Europid" racial type? :-)))

I think it's pretty out-dated... not that it ever was up-to-date, evidently it's all is not based on actual anthropometrical data and research

[Céleste]

By the way; what is the difference between east-nordid, and west-baltid? Is there a difference at all?

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Céleste

By the way; what is the difference between east-nordid, and west-baltid? Is there a difference at all?

They're actually quite different types, the East-Nordid belongs to the Auregnacoid spectrum, while the West-Baltid to the Cromagnoid one.

[Ariets]

I would say if we are talking generally about the eastern cromagnoids, I would make categories like:

a) unreduced eastern cromagnoid - "Kurganoid" (Lundman's eastern Brunnid?), in my own opinion related to Faelid and maybe (not really sure) Berberid (but rather not? If yes they all maybe are from one Cromagnoid similar related "core"?) - with medium to tall stature; head large, long and high; mesomorphic body build; long or medium high rooted nose - straight (sometimes beetwen straight and concave); deep set eyes (or and moderatly); hair mainly straight, sometimes curly, definitly from all degrees of lightness (haircolour); eyes blue, grey and blue-grey. They look also somewhat Nordoid (b. also).

b) so-called "West-Baltid" of two types:

I. taller and more squarish faced
II. medium statured more squarish-rounded face.

Rest features are manly this same, but second variant seems to be more broad-faced, brachyliocephalic and sometimes Borreby-looking.
Both I & II propably are higheaded high-mesocephals and/or sub-brachyliocephalics; medium faced; nose similar to "Kurganoid" but little bit wider (not much); pigmentation of eyes and hair are light, but I've noticed that there is more brownheads than Kurganoids have; also mesomorphic strong body build.

c) (Standard or proper) "Baltids". To me personally they look like intermediates of "West Baltids" and "East Baltids" without "crazy eyes" as I call that (uralic fold or whatever). Also I have noticed they are more frequently ash-blond haired than the others. Similar to b.II. variant but much more rounded than squarish. Body build variation is also other, from lepto- to even pyknomorphic; high and sub-brachyliocephalic crania.

I guess there are more E.CM subtypes/derrivates et cetera

------- End of the list -------
As for...
d) "Ostbaltish"/"East Baltid" to me they shoudnt be categorised to eastern cromagnoid category, they very similar, also metrically to lappids. To me they can be higher, depigmented and more "euro" looking version of Lappids. And as so give me depigmented text-book lappid and give it to some board, how they would classify him?


Generally most tend to be squarish-headed I think. I think there must be also more Cromagnoid subtypes of one basic eastern type "Kurganoid" that we havent categorised or just calll Cromagnoid or Eastern Cromagnoid. And I have notice that many "Baltoids" tend to mix with Nordids, or maybe its natural process making them diffrent? Anyway its most common mix (E.CM+N) in slavic/balto-slavic or/and eastern populations. And By the way, I dont know why but I dont like that name - "Baltoid"/"Baltid".

Ps. I dont have enougch knowledge to make any good descriptions and present of my own view o racial types, so dont interpretate them to seriusly. I base mainly on my own observations on streets in my homeland and polish literature of Malinowski, Michalski et cetera.

[Bojo]

Originally Posted by Ariets

I would say if we are talking generally about the eastern cromagnoids, I would make categories like:

a) unreduced eastern cromagnoid - "Kurganoid" (Lundman's eastern Brunnid?), in my own opinion related to Faelid and maybe (not really sure) Berberid (but rather not? If yes they all maybe are from one Cromagnoid similar related "core"?) - with medium to tall stature; head large, long and high; mesomorphic body build; long or medium high rooted nose - straight (sometimes beetwen straight and concave); deep set eyes (or and moderatly); hair mainly straight, sometimes curly, definitly from all degrees of lightness (haircolour); eyes blue, grey and blue-grey. They look also somewhat Nordoid (b. also).

b) so-called "West-Baltid" of two types:

I. taller and more squarish faced
II. medium statured more squarish-rounded face.

Rest features are manly this same, but second variant seems to be more broad-faced, brachyliocephalic and sometimes Borreby-looking.
Both I & II propably are higheaded high-mesocephals and/or sub-brachyliocephalics; medium faced; nose similar to "Kurganoid" but little bit wider (not much); pigmentation of eyes and hair are light, but I've noticed that there is more brownheads than Kurganoids have; also mesomorphic strong body build.

c) (Standard or proper) "Baltids". To me personally they look like intermediates of "West Baltids" and "East Baltids" without "crazy eyes" as I call that (uralic fold or whatever). Also I have noticed they are more frequently ash-blond haired than the others. Similar to b.II. variant but much more rounded than squarish. Body build variation is also other, from lepto- to even pyknomorphic; high and sub-brachyliocephalic crania.

I guess there are more E.CM subtypes/derrivates et cetera

------- End of the list -------
As for...
d) "Ostbaltish"/"East Baltid" to me they shoudnt be categorised to eastern cromagnoid category, they very similar, also metrically to lappids. To me they can be higher, depigmented and more "euro" looking version of Lappids. And as so give me depigmented text-book lappid and give it to some board, how they would classify him?


Generally most tend to be squarish-headed I think. I think there must be also more Cromagnoid subtypes of one basic eastern type "Kurganoid" that we havent categorised or just calll Cromagnoid or Eastern Cromagnoid. And I have notice that many "Baltoids" tend to mix with Nordids, or maybe its natural process making them diffrent? Anyway its most common mix (E.CM+N) in slavic/balto-slavic or/and eastern populations. And By the way, I dont know why but I dont like that name - "Baltoid"/"Baltid".

Ps. I dont have enougch knowledge to make any good descriptions and present of my own view o racial types, so dont interpretate them to seriusly. I base mainly on my own observations on streets in my homeland and polish literature of Malinowski, Michalski et cetera.

What do you think Ariets about this type? Too varieties of West Baltid race?

[Ariets]

Originally Posted by Bojo

What do you think Ariets about this type? Too varieties of West Baltid race?

He's Cromagnoid after Michalski. His profile reminds me few reconstructions and skulls of early Slavs what have posted Aeon on HBF. Im not sure what to reallly say but I think he can be Cromagnoid - Nordid mix?