Sub nordid and Vistulian

[Bojo]

For Ariets, I thing she is from russian portal.

[Visigodo]

This map look interesting. Would be great if you can translate it and tell us the source.

[Exeter]

Do you know where the lady comes from?

This so-called Baltid is clearly closer to Scando-Nordid than East-Baltid.

The Valdaic man and the lady are close to the Trönder of Scandinavian anthropology. Just compare the lady with the Trönder of Coon.

They are not slightly similar. They are very similar.

I have returned home from having been to Riga, Odessa, Illichivsk, Kiev, Vilnius and Warsaw. I wanted to see Minsk too. I couldn't bother with the visa. I will try travel there another time. Everyone I met told me they are friendly in Minsk. I was in Riga and Warsaw only a day and night though. I will try to write down something about the people.

[Bojo]

Yes I can translate this map. What do you thing about my photos of
types Visigodo and others? But Vistulian sorry I don´t know if they are
really Deniker´s Vistulian and Bunak´s Under Vistula.

[Visigodo]

Originally Posted by Exeter

Do you know where the lady comes from?

Both are Huzulians and to be frank I took them as Bunak's Valdaic like examples time ago as they have a similar look at some of the examples I have from Bunak but as they are not from the area where Bunak located the Valdaic type I think now that would be better to be clear about that. The pictures where taken by L. Cipriani, (Eine Rassenuntersuchung bei den Hutzulen -Nodostkarpathen-) and posted by R. Battaglia (L'EUROPA ORIENTALE, I CARATTERI SOMATICI) a chapter of RAZZE E POPOLI DELLA TERRA by Renato Biasutti. They were classified as depigmented "Baltic types".

This so-called Baltid is clearly closer to Scando-Nordid than East-Baltid.

Both are quite Nordids and the man clearly Nordid for sure. The woman seems to show some kind of Cromagnid or Osteuropid? admixture.

The Valdaic man and the lady are close to the Trönder of Scandinavian anthropology. Just compare the lady with the Trönder of Coon.

They are not slightly similar. They are very similar.

I think so. They can be brothers.

I have returned home from having been to Riga, Odessa, Illichivsk, Kiev, Vilnius and Warsaw. I wanted to see Minsk too. I couldn't bother with the visa. I will try travel there another time. Everyone I met told me they are friendly in Minsk. I was in Riga and Warsaw only a day and night though. I will try to write down something about the people.

I hope you have had nice holidays. I am sure you will like Minsk.

[Visigodo]

Originally Posted by Bojo

Yes I can translate this map.

I would apreciate it so much thanks.

What do you thing about my photos of types Visigodo and others?

I think that this one would be the more clearly "Illmen Dniepr type" like:




Some other pictures to compare (I think was Ross who have posted them before but I can not remember well):



The only one who can be considered a good example of Bunak's "Valdaic" is the following one. I think I have posted this picture before and he is a real Bunak's example:



West-Baltid. Not sure if to call them "Tavastids" is a good denomination. The firs anthropologist who use similar term was Retzius (Finska Kranier. Stockholm, 1878) and the type described by him is the typical East-Baltid one. Retzius named this type the "Tavaslandian".

The selections is not bat in my opinion. Specially following one:



This one seems to have Nordid admixture in my opinion:



And the woman looks at least pred. East-Baltid and looks nice in my opinion :




All the East-Baltid examples seems to be quite good. The following one are Textbook examples in my opinion:

[Exeter]

Originally Posted by Visigodo

Both are Huzulians and to be frank I took them as Bunak's Valdaic like examples time ago as they have a similar look at some of the examples I have from Bunak but as they are not from the area where Bunak located the Valdaic type I think now that would be better to be clear about that. The pictures where taken by L. Cipriani, (Eine Rassenuntersuchung bei den Hutzulen -Nodostkarpathen-) and posted by R. Battaglia (L'EUROPA ORIENTALE, I CARATTERI SOMATICI) a chapter of RAZZE E POPOLI DELLA TERRA by Renato Biasutti. They were classified as depigmented "Baltic types".

The woman look like many Russian ladies I've seen. Do you know if it's correct to say Huzulians and Ruthenians are different names for the same people? Or are they a sub-group of Ruthenians?

Both are quite Nordids and the man clearly Nordid for sure. The woman seems to show some kind of Cromagnid or Osteuropid? admixture.

She does seem robust. However, the same can be said of many Scandinavian Nordids. I see what you mean with the formation of her mouth and cheekbones. She is old though. People change a lot.

You know Eastern European anthropology is much more complex than Osteuropid, that is what I got when I was in Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine and Poland. I need to travel much more in those countries to understand their looks better. I have a better idea than I had before. I saw less exotic looks than I had expected. I actually saw more exotic looks (from a British or Scandinavian perspective) in Riga than Odessa or Kiev. Things are complex, I got that more southern and eastern doesn't necessarily mean more exotic. It would have been even better if I could have visited villages. I had no time for that though. One thing is clear. Eastern Europeans (especially Russians) are much fairer (at least in hair and to a lesser extent also eye colour) than west and central Europeans.

I think so. They can be brothers.

Brother and sister? I was comparing the Trönder man to the Huzulian lady.

I hope you have had nice holidays. I am sure you will like Minsk.

I had a good holiday, thank you. Travelling opens up eyes. I appreciate the order at home even more although I also admire the more laid-back (in a way more human) lifestyle in east. I wrote a summary of my observations at http://forum.stirpes.net/atrium/1324...rn-europe.html
I will travel to Minsk another time. Maybe next year. I know you've been there.

[Ariets]

I have added as attachment few Deniker's, maybe will help? Who knows

[Bojo]

Thank you Visigodo for your appreciation, and here are sub types from
ukrainian map.
And What do you think about my erroneously intended Valdaic types?
What they are? And do you can send other Bunak´photos?

BALTIC ZONE: 1) White sea = Corded+Uralid? similar to Neo Danubian?
2) Baltid = West Baltid
3) East Baltid = I think really East Baltid (Savolaxid)
4) Estonian variant of East Baltid = ???
5) Latgalian variant of West Baltid = west Baltid+East Baltid?

6) Illmen Dniepr = Nordid+Valdaic

DNIEPR-VOLGA ZONE
(Central east european): 7) Don Sursk = Variant of North Pontid
8) Valdaic = Osteuropid (reduced Baltid)
9) Lithuanian variant of Valdaic
10) Upper Oka = other North Pontid?
11) Kama-Suchonska = ???
12) Vetluzkij variant Kljazmensko-Vetluzkoj = ???
13) Kljazmenskij variant Klajzmensko-Vetluzkoj = ???
14) Central Ukrainian = ???
15) Volin = ???
16) Polessian = very robust cromanid
17) Upper Neman = ???

PONTIC ZONE: 18) Don Sursk steppe =
19) Middle Volga = I think pontid with uralid influence.
20) Prutian type = Ukrainian Pontid
21) Lower Dniepr = other Ukrainian Pontid
22) Kuban type = Pontid+Armenid or other causasian type
23) Lower Danubian = Pontid+dinarid
24) Balkan variant of Black sea type

CARPATO-BALKAN ZONE: 25) Carpatid = a) dinarid and norid ??, b) East alpinid??

URALO-LAPPONOID ZONE: 26) Viatka-Kama = Sub lapponoid, Ludman´s Volgid, Bunak´s Volga-Kama
27) Lapponoid = classic reduced Lappid type
28) Sub Uralid = Ladogan
29) Uralid = unreduced proto lapponoid

SOUTHERN SIBIRID ZONE: 30) Southern sibirid = Turanid???

[Visigodo]

Originally Posted by Exeter

The woman look like many Russian ladies I've seen. Do you know if it's correct to say Huzulians and Ruthenians are different names for the same people? Or are they a sub-group of Ruthenians?

Well I don't have much information (from what I have checked) about them but it seems that they are a sub-group of the Ruthenian ethnia. I think the are the highlanders Ruthenians. They have another name: Gouzouli.

You know Eastern European anthropology is much more complex than Osteuropid, that is what I got when I was in Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine and Poland. I need to travel much more in those countries to understand their looks better. I have a better idea than I had before. I saw less exotic looks than I had expected. I actually saw more exotic looks (from a British or Scandinavian perspective) in Riga than Odessa or Kiev. Things are complex, I got that more southern and eastern doesn't necessarily mean more exotic. It would have been even better if I could have visited villages. I had no time for that though. One thing is clear. Eastern Europeans (especially Russians) are much fairer (at least in hair and to a lesser extent also eye colour) than west and central Europeans.

I can only say that you comment is exactly my thoughts. Specially after visiting Russia and Byelorrussia. The term Osteuropid can be used with care as he can not to describe and to categorize the complex Eastern anthropology. That is why I have attempted and I am still attempting to get good material about such mutter. The problem is that some of the best works (if not the best) are in Russian or in Polish language but something in german and in english still can be found. In Russian there is a great work in Russian and very updated: "EASTERN SLAVS. ANTHROPOLOGY AND ETHNIC HISTORY". (1999) by T. I. Alexeeva and others. Well at least I have a few works from Bunak in german and also something in english and in german from Polish anthropologists.

Brother and sister? I was comparing the Trönder man to the Huzulian lady.

I am sorry. My mistake. I referred to the woman and the example from Coon. You are right Brother and sister.

I had a good holiday, thank you. Travelling opens up eyes. I appreciate the order at home even more although I also admire the more laid-back (in a way more human) lifestyle in east. I wrote a summary of my observations at http://forum.stirpes.net/atrium/1324...rn-europe.html
I will travel to Minsk another time. Maybe next year. I know you've been there.

I will check your comments about your trip. Thank you.

[Visigodo]

Originally Posted by Bojo

Thank you Visigodo for your appreciation, and here are sub types from
ukrainian map.
And What do you think about my erroneously intended Valdaic types?
What they are? And do you can send other Bunak´photos?

BALTIC ZONE: 1) White sea = Corded+Uralid? similar to Neo Danubian?
2) Baltid = West Baltid
3) East Baltid = I think really East Baltid (Savolaxid)
4) Estonian variant of East Baltid = ???
5) Latgalian variant of West Baltid = west Baltid+East Baltid?

6) Illmen Dniepr = Nordid+Valdaic

DNIEPR-VOLGA ZONE
(Central east european): 7) Don Sursk = Variant of North Pontid
8) Valdaic = Osteuropid (reduced Baltid)
9) Lithuanian variant of Valdaic
10) Upper Oka = other North Pontid?
11) Kama-Suchonska = ???
12) Vetluzkij variant Kljazmensko-Vetluzkoj = ???
13) Kljazmenskij variant Klajzmensko-Vetluzkoj = ???
14) Central Ukrainian = ???
15) Volin = ???
16) Polessian = very robust cromanid
17) Upper Neman = ???

PONTIC ZONE: 18) Don Sursk steppe =
19) Middle Volga = I think pontid with uralid influence.
20) Prutian type = Ukrainian Pontid
21) Lower Dniepr = other Ukrainian Pontid
22) Kuban type = Pontid+Armenid or other causasian type
23) Lower Danubian = Pontid+dinarid
24) Balkan variant of Black sea type

CARPATO-BALKAN ZONE: 25) Carpatid = a) dinarid and norid ??, b) East alpinid??

URALO-LAPPONOID ZONE: 26) Viatka-Kama = Sub lapponoid, Ludman´s Volgid, Bunak´s Volga-Kama
27) Lapponoid = classic reduced Lappid type
28) Sub Uralid = Ladogan
29) Uralid = unreduced proto lapponoid

SOUTHERN SIBIRID ZONE: 30) Southern sibirid = Turanid???

Thank you so much for the translation. I appreciate your effort.

Regarding your "Valdaic" examples I think most of them look something more Balticized that the classic Bunak's Valdaic type is. For example. In fact the two examples in black and with are Baltids (standard) and the one in colour Baltid/East-Baltid I would say:



Now compare with two Bunak's examples, they don't show Baltizisation and they have much more "Nordoid" look:






Perhaps this one can have some resemblances:

[Bojo]

Thank you Visigodo, is true that exist sub types of Valdaic type. On ukrainian
map are basic two: a) Valdaic (I think classic in Belarus and north western Russia, northern Ukraine, Poland, Northern Slovakia.)
b) Lithuanian variant of Valdaic type

And on russian graph, which i will send (but i think you will know this graph),
are 3 variants of first Valdaic: 1) Lovat-Sorotsk - CI=82,8
2) Valdaic - CI= 83,O
3) Valdaic - CI= 83,O but smaller FI than
second

[Ariets]

Maybe Im not best here in anthropology but I think that so-called Vistulian type can be this same or other variant of Ilmen-Dniepr type or "Continental Nordid" or (I think that in 80%) Czupkiewicz's Intermarine (Miedzymorski type). This same maybe about Valdaic type.
As for description of Vistulian type I think it was very common in Poland, since in first part of XX centaury Poles ware very short statured - but not now, people changes and now average is 177,2 (other source 179) cm. I think it can be common now also.

[Bojo]

But in Bunak´s work is, so Illmen Dniepr (Upper Dniepr, Illmen-White lake, Intermarine) = Sub Northern (or Sub Nordid) of Deniker. Vistulian must be
other type, or no? But what is Sub Northern of Deniker, when Illmen Dniepr
type is Vistulian?

[Bojo]

Originally Posted by Bojo

Vistulian?? (Bunak´s Under Vistula?) Not fully balticized, between west baltid
and Valdaic (Baltid). You can see Deniker´s map. (Sorry for my simple english)

What do you think Ariets and others, can be they Vistulian race?