SNP outlines independence plans

[Aptrgangr]

SNP outlines independence plans


Alex Salmond said no change was no longer an option

Scotland's SNP government has set out its plans for a referendum on independence, despite opposition from the other main political parties.

Launching a "national conversation", First Minister Alex Salmond said no change was no longer an option.
The SNP leader said the white paper set out the full range of options which would be debated.
But Labour and the Tories said the document was purely about independence, however it was "dressed up".
The Liberal Democrats said the white paper should be withdrawn, although they welcomed it as the first sign that the Nationalists were prepared to settle for something other than taking Scotland out of the United Kingdom.
The three opposition parties have united to oppose independence, leaving little chance of the minority government's plans for a referendum receiving parliamentary approval.
Although the wide-ranging, 40-page white paper set out the case for a ballot, Mr Salmond said he was "open-minded" on alternative opinions.

He said it was the "settled will" of the Scottish people for their parliament to grow in "influence and authority".
"We in the government believe that independence would be the best for our country," Mr Salmond told a press conference in Edinburgh.
"Others support increased devolution, or greater responsibility for taxes and spending, or federalism.
"But whatever the differences between the political parties, the message of the election was obvious - the constitutional position of Scotland must move forward."
The white paper sets out what the SNP sees as the three main realistic choices for Scots.

These are:

• The present devolved set-up;
  
• Redesigning devolution by extending the powers of the Scottish Parliament in specific areas;
  
• Or full independence.

The white paper also includes the draft wording of the ballot paper for a referendum.
This asks voters whether they agree or disagree "that the Scottish government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of a United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".
However, Mr Salmond said he was relaxed about the possibility of a multi-option referendum, even though he admitted that "might not" be his preference.

'Not wanted'
He said: "The opportunity now presents itself for those who want another option in a referendum to define that option and present the case to the government for inclusion on the ballot paper".
However, Scottish Labour Deputy Leader Cathy Jamieson said the people of Scotland did not want independence.
She said: "No-one should be under any illusion. The white paper is about breaking up the UK, not making Scotland better.
"The SNP may suggest that this document considers a range of options but no matter how you look at it, it is fundamentally about independence."

Her comments were echoed by Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Conservative leader, who added: "However it is dressed up, and however many bells, whistles and frills are attached, at its core is the SNP's separatist agenda.
"If Alex Salmond wants a conversation about devolution, then he can join ours. We don't need a white paper to have a chat."
"It is time to defeat this draft independence bill and move on to deal with bread and butter issues which really matter and how we can all make devolution work better."

Distinctive views
Scottish Lib Dem leader Nicol Stephen said the white paper was good news, claiming the SNP was moving in their preferred direction of winning more powers for the Scottish Parliament.
"The SNP obsession with independence is a road-block to consensus," said Scotland's former deputy first minister.
"The white paper is a waste of taxpayers' money. It should be withdrawn. That would allow progress to be made on the campaign to gain more powers."
The pro-independence Scottish Greens said all the parties owed it to the public to take part in genuine dialogue about Scotland's constitutional future.
Patrick Harvie, one of the party's two MSPs, said: "Each of Scotland's parties represents a distinctive view on the constitutional settlement, and each of those opinions must be properly represented."

BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | SNP outlines independence plans

[Yago]

I thought that the SNP had parked the issue of the independence for the moment.

[Errigal]

What a total shambles Tony Blair left. If they want to have a federal system they should do it properly, or if they want Wales and Scotland to be independent they should do that. What they have now is an unworkable mess.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Errigal

What a total shambles Tony Blair left. If they want to have a federal system they should do it properly, or if they want Wales and Scotland to be independent they should do that. What they have now is an unworkable mess.

It sounds familiar to me.

[Ederico]

I'm not surprised the Labourites and the Tories are against independence, aren't they part and parcel of the greater British parties they represent? Their agenda is definitely British, with an independent Scotland they'd sort of be orphans. Or not?

[Deus Vult]

SNP - Unionism hidden under the quise of Nationalism. Any plans for independance by the SNP will just be swaping the seat of power from London to Brussels.

[Yago]

So what's the alternative in Scotland, if any?


p.s. Scottish would be an "ethnicity". Alternative, Gaelic would be too. But "white" is not an ethnicity.
That's like talking of a human "race", instead of species.

[Deus Vult]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

So what's the alternative in Scotland, if any?

I would rather have the Devil I know than the Devil I don't. The only alternative is to campign against an Independant Scotland entering the EU. It will be the only chance we really will have to have a say in our own Government and Country.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by ScottishResistance

I would rather have the Devil I know than the Devil I don't. The only alternative is to campign against an Independant Scotland entering the EU. It will be the only chance we really will have to have a say in our own Government and Country.

Sorry, I think I did not understand you: are you in favour of the Scottish independence even if it means just, as you said, "swapping center of power from London to Brussels"?

Maybe it would be a reasonable and worthwhile goal for real nationalists to advocate a real independence, from both London and Brussels (just my conjectures, I don't know much about Scotland). Why swap one alien center for another?

[Almost a Christian]

I wouldn't worry about Brussels. It appears Britain is successfully inching away from the EU. Salmond isn't authentic. He wants to retain the monarchy and I suspect he's part of the initiative to reconfigure the union using the vocabulary of independence. Not quite, now maybe but at some point..

[Deus Vult]

Originally Posted by Plethon

Sorry, I think I did not understand you: are you in favour of the Scottish independence even if it means just, as you said, "swapping center of power from London to Brussels"?

Maybe it would be a goal of real nationalists to advocate a real independence, from both London and Brussels?

No not at all. I meant I would rather Scotland remain in the UK than go Independant and and join the EU. But I would love for Scotland to be fully independant from both.

[Yago]

If I understand it well, the SNP is a Social-Democratic party. All parties that I know at a regional level and that use the label of Nationalist, are nothing of the such starting by the fact that they reject any idea of an ethnic identity.

Speaking to the representative of one such party here, when I enquired him about the matter of ethnic preservation, he said that their "nationalism" was a cultural fact based only in the language. And that an Aethiopian or a Muslim Moroccan, if they spoke the language, could well be a part of it.

Pathetic as it sounds.

Originally Posted by ScottishResistance

I would rather have the Devil I know than the Devil I don't. The only alternative is to campign against an Independant Scotland entering the EU. It will be the only chance we really will have to have a say in our own Government and Country.

In my limited understanding of the state of things in Scotland, one problem seems to be the difficulty of a new alternative to the right of the SNP (for example), as this is a space occupied by the British Conservatives, in the fight of Tories vs Labour.

An ideal options would be to scratch support from voters of the SNP who become disillusioned with their policies, and at the same time the Scots who grow aware of the invasion of immigrants that's leading to Scottish ethnic identity disintegration. But this is a long road which requires much resources from the start.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Almost a Christian

I wouldn't worry about Brussels. It appears Britain is successfully inching away from the EU.

As far as immigration and identity issues go, don't Brussels and London mean pretty much the same? Or worse London. After all, immigrants in Scotland come mostly from the British Commonwealth.

Salmond isn't authentic. He wants to retain the monarchy and I suspect he's part of the initiative to reconfigure the union using the vocabulary of independence. Not quite, now maybe but at some point..

That's likely. Not the first time that I would see one of these self-labeled [pseudo-]nationalists to use the threat of independence for bargaining.

[swordjumper]

How can the SNP claim to be a nationalist party when they embrace multiculturalism ? Black ,White, Yellow , Brown, they can all call themselves Scotsmen ! The SNP is a complete waste of time.

[Deus Vult]

Originally Posted by swordjumper

How can the SNP claim to be a nationalist party when they embrace multiculturalism ? Black ,White, Yellow , Brown, they can all call themselves Scotsmen ! The SNP is a complete waste of time.

There are diffrent forms of Nationalism.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by ScottishResistance

There are diffrent forms of Nationalism.

Not really. Nationalism is per its etymology and definition an ethnic concept.

That makes parties like the SNP or the BNP, only nationalist in the name.

[OneEnglishNorman]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

If I understand it well, the SNP is a Social-Democratic party. All parties that I know at a regional level and that use the label of Nationalist, are nothing of the such starting by the fact that they reject any idea of an ethnic identity.

Speaking to the representative of one such party here, when I enquired him about the matter of ethnic preservation, he said that their "nationalism" was a cultural fact based only in the language. And that an Aethiopian or a Muslim Moroccan, if they spoke the language, could well be a part of it.

Yes... that's very true. Their idea of what it is to be Scottish must be convoluted. Undoubtedly the SNP is multi-culturalist. I read similar things on the Sinn Fein website.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman

Yes... that's very true. Their idea of what it is to be Scottish must be convoluted. Undoubtedly the SNP is multi-culturalist. I read similar things on the Sinn Fein website.

That's what happens when the Left hijacks the label of nationalism. Not only there. Here too.

[Deus Vult]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Not really. Nationalism is per its etymology and definition an ethnic concept.

That makes parties like the SNP or the BNP, only nationalist in the name.

Yes true, and as you stated in the above post, the left has hijacked the word Nationalism, and changed its true meaning.

[Nova Hibernian]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

That makes parties like the SNP or the BNP, only nationalist in the name.

I'd put the BNP in a different category from the SNP. The BNP doesn't consider Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, or Cornwall to be separate from England, and thus advocates a pan-British identity. That's an intellectually questionable position, but its not advocacy of multiculturalism, in the sense they see the UK as a single national culture. To the extent the BNP allows nonWhite members and runs nonWhite candidates (a pretty small extent), its just window dressing that they have to tack onto their party to keep from getting banned from participation in British electoral politics.

Scotland should either become an independent republic, or form their own, native Scots monarchy. Either way, EU membership should be avoided. I suspect a native Scots monarchy would help keep a check on things from getting degenerate at an even greater pace than they are now, which is to say that republicanism would probably be worse (considering the sort of left-wing, social democratic republic would likely be formed in Scotland). I'd prefer a Scottish ethno-nationalist republic, but that's not really in the cards, barring some massive social revolution.