Has Nazism Killed European Nationalism?

[Señor Malo]

Whenever any organisation, party, movement or individual in Europe claims to be "Nationalist" is quite often regarded suspiciously, discredited and labelled as facist and racist.

My question is; would there be all this paranoia about European nationalism today without Nazism?

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Truth-Finder

Whenever any organisation, party, movement or individual in Europe claims to be "Nationalist" is quite often regarded suspiciously, discredited and labelled as facist and racist.

I don't really think so. It is more the case in Germany and Germanic countries.

[Pro Hibernia]

Originally Posted by Marulus

I don't really think so. It is more the case in Germany and Germanic countries.

It had a bit of a negative impact on the SNP in Scotland.

I would say it has partly, but I believe it is due to Americanism that it was fuelled.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Marulus

I don't really think so. It is more the case in Germany and Germanic countries.

More so. Yes. But how do you explain that nationalism and free speech has been restricted just as much, although perhaps with different methods, in France? And with England, how does it factor in that it is a Germanic country? Then let's take Croatia as an example. Is it true or not true that nationalism and free speech has been restricted in a similar way as in Germany?

[Monolith]

Has Nazism Killed European Nationalism?

No, but it caused tremendous damage to it. People automatically connect any notion of nationalism with nazism, fascism or chauvinism and never really think about it seriously.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Marulus

I don't really think so. It is more the case in Germany and Germanic countries.

That is correct. I can only speak for Denmark - but here it has wiped nationalism off the map, long-term.

Short-term in WW2, it actually strengthened national solidarity of Danes though, unfortunately by means of hatred towards all Germans (which has slowly phased out, and only exists as a minor remnant today, but its still something that is in our minds).

[Señor Malo]

I actually think that option two "No" is very restrictive I should have rather put "not really" isof a qualify "No" or put "not really" as a fith option

[Menydh]

Yes, in part.

And it is like a leech sucking your blood.

[Routasydän]

Originally Posted by Truth-Finder

Whenever any organisation, party, movement or individual in Europe claims to be "Nationalist" is quite often regarded suspiciously, discredited and labelled as facist and racist.

My question is; would there be all this paranoia about European nationalism today without Nazism?

I definately think that Nazism [Hitlerism] provides European nationalists inevitably with a huge historical, moral and intellectual burden. It would be the same if every socialist was labelled a Stalinist.

The defeat of Nazism drove nationalist intellectuals out of mainstream discouse. Regaining the pre-war position will require a lot of hard work, since we will have to fight for every inch of 'cultural space' and influence.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Gnist

But how do you explain that nationalism and free speech has been restricted just as much, although perhaps with different methods, in France?

Because of the creeping dictatorship exerted by the new totalitarian super-state and their local offshots in different countries, as well as by their spiritual mentors (Freemasonry, NGOs, Academia etc.)

Most of the political and ideological developments after the Second World War went in the direction of abolishing national identities, cultures etc, not on the account of some perceived dangers of Nazism, but because of the project of creating a new man and of the new universalistic culture, whereof the unified Europe (connected in a military alliance with USA and forming an entity usually referred to as "West") would be the first building block, with the aim of spreading such a concept to the entire world. Any strong national identity of any European nation is a hindrance to such a project. That is why it has been actively suppressed.

Different European nations have very variegated traditions in nationalism. In most of them it had never anything in common with Nazism. National Socialism and everything that went along with it was a specifically German phenomenon. Maybe it was adopted in some other Germanic countries principally because of the Nordic racial mythology, heavily promoted by the NSDAP regime in Germany, or it is maybe a distant echo of the 19th century general admiration for Prussia and its achievements (which was not devoid of justification, since those achievements were great indeed, at least measured by the standards of those times) - an admiration that was in no way confined to Germanic lands only, but there it was the most marked - or it is simply a matter of fashion.

The truth is that there is today no larger body of "Nazis" (apart of few fringe groups), neither in Germany nor in other Germanic countries, but the label is still used by the system, as means on damping down on any dissent against the governing order, which would eventually come from nationalists. But that is the German situation only.

I fail to see how the Nazism supposedly "killed" nationalism in other countries, where it was historically non-existent.

Originally Posted by Gnist

And with England, how does it factor in that it is a Germanic country?

British Empire already favoured multiculturalism and one-worldism of some sort, so I guess that is the reason for the lack of nationalism and suppression of identity there.

Originally Posted by Gnist

Then let's take Croatia as an example. Is it true or not true that nationalism and free speech has been restricted in a similar way as in Germany?

Not in anything resembling to what was enforced in Germany. You can still freely express your opinion, but nobody will publish it. Dissenting opinions are not actively suppressed by laws, as in Germany and in some other countries of Northern Europe, but by the wall of silence. Major journals are owned by those closely tied to the power structures of the system, so that it, in the final analysis, boils down to the same. There is a possibility to make a website though, but few have ventured so far. There are already some, but too moderate and too in line with the political correctness.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by wilpuri

I definately think that Nazism [Hitlerism] provides European nationalists inevitably with a huge historical, moral and intellectual burden. It would be the same if every socialist was labelled a Stalinist.

I even believe that would be worse for a socialist in an objective world. But the world is not objective. Someone who is called a stalinist, even if rightly so, can get away with a chuckle. Imagine how that would work for someone who is accused of being a nazi, even if the accusation is unfounded... not working.

I think you make a good point by distinguishing hitlerism from nazism. It was Hitler, more than nazism, who caused trouble, wasn't it? Someone must be responsible.

Originally Posted by wilpuri

Regaining the pre-war position will require a lot of hard work, since we will have to fight for every inch of 'cultural space' and influence.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by wilpuri

The defeat of Nazism drove nationalist intellectuals out of mainstream discouse.

I think that the nazi paranoia in the minds of men, as well as the anti-ethnic postwar policies, are very much things that people who in one sense or another were winners caused, and are still causing. Most people also take the opportunity to be with the winners, so to speak, by playing along. The way that people who don't have any guilt whatsoever of nazi crimes are being suspected of and publicly slandered for nazism is totally irrational. It wouldn't happen unless someone powerful actually wanted it to happen.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Not in anything resembling to what was enforced in Germany. You can still freely express your opinion, but nobody will publish it. Dissenting opinions are not actively suppressed by laws, as in Germany and in some other countries of Northern Europe, but by the wall of silence. Major journals are owned by those closely tied to the power structures of the system, so that it, in the final analysis, boils down to the same. There is a possibility to make a website though, but few have ventured so far. There are already some, but too moderate and too in line with the political correctness.

Ustasja and all political references to ustasja were and are still banned, true or not true?

[M.R.]

In the same way it could be asked if it was Fascism that killed nationalism, or racism, since many nationalists are labelled fascists and racists.

I'd voted No, it's the modern world that killed nationalism, or it's trying to kill it, since it's not dead, "Nazi/fascist/racist" label is just part of modern world anti-nationalist agenda, and I would say it's not even the biggest threat to nationalism, at least not in my country. It's easily refuted and it gives you a chance to present opponents of nationalism as ignorant fools (which basicaly they are if their anti-nationalist argumentation is that it's "Nazi") or even traitors of my nation since the historical struggle of Slovenian nationalists against all kinds of Germanic imperialism (which, again, is what they really are).

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Gnist

Ustasja and all political references to ustasja were and are still banned, true or not true?

A complicated question. There is no explicit law against reference to the Ustaša-movement, as there is in Germany against Nazi symbols, but nevertheless it is publicly shunned and one can be accused for disturbing "public law and order" for displaying Ustaša symbols in public, because they are deemed "inappropriate" and as an indirect "incitement to ethnic hatred". It is usually not treated as a criminal offense sensu stricto though, but merely as an infraction of the law.

Being myself no fan of the Ustaša movement, I do not see any point in the criminal suppression of any (supposedly) positive references to it either. It does not exist anymore, it is a movement belonging to history anyway. There are no ustaše today.