Should lying be a crime?

[Weltschmerz]

It's a simple poll with 3 options.

Answer what is most in line with your thoughts, and add any condition or exception to the conversation.



My basic assumption is that lying should be a crime, so I will vote "yes", but I think there can be situations where lying is justified, because someone had the intention to use a harmless truth or just the doubt against you, or for another bad purpose.

[Hegumen]

No, for obvious reasons.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Hegumen

No, for obvious reasons.

How about telling me them?

I posted this spontaneously, and I could think of reasons why I could be wrong, but what are the obvious reasons?

Let's take an example: Is it alright for the leader of a nation, like the prime minister, to lie to his people?

[Errigal]

I voted no because "not all sins are crimes, and not all crimes are sins" as they say.

Originally Posted by Gnist

...

Let's take an example: Is it alright for the leader of a nation, like the prime minister, to lie to his people?

If he has broken his oath of duty and endangered the state then he could be charged for those crimes. His lying could be a key piece of evidence to convict him of treason or gross misconduct or whatever. As far as the law is concerned sins are only relevant when they contribute to the carrying out of a crime and even then they are simply considered actions of the accused pure and simple. The law (when it is applied properly) is not concerned with sins, only crimes.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Errigal

I voted no because "not all sins are crimes, and not all crimes are sins" as they say.




If he has broken his oath of duty and endangered the state then he could be charged for those crimes. His lying could be a key piece of evidence to convict him of treason or gross misconduct or whatever. As far as the law is concerned sins are only relevant when they contribute to the carrying out of a crime and even then they are simply considered actions of the accused pure and simple. The law (when it is applied properly) is not concerned with sins, only crimes.

What you say actually makes a lot of sense to me. I think maybe I applied an idea to a term without thinking too much about reality. I actually came to think of high treason while considering if what I said made sense or not.

The example I gave is quite real - I came to think of something rather recent and quite horrible. In 2006, Swedish prime minister Göran Persson lied in commenting a decision taken by the parliament, where his party made an agreement with another party. He said that they had decided to "stop immigration, because that is what the Swedish public wants". This statement was blown up to immense proportions in the mass media and was presented as a "scandal". It was a scandal, but not in the way they made it seem. Because when that year had come to its closure half a year or so later, immigration for that year was an all time record, higher than any other year before that. But this was hardly commented at all in the mass media.

So they didn't stop immigration, and they never intended to; he just said so. I think it would be very convenient and just if he really could be punished for such a thing.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by Gnist

Let's take an example: Is it alright for the leader of a nation, like the prime minister, to lie to his people?

Of course it's not right. But why didn't you construct your question different then? Maybe: Should the lying of a countries governance in state matters be treated like a crime? (if this action goes clearly against the constitution, or the common interest of citizens)

In this case my answer is 'yes'. But 'Should lying be a crime?' is to broad for me. Doesn't it assume that all lies should be dealt like crimes? If that is what you meant, my answer is 'no'.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Gnist

What you say actually makes a lot of sense to me. I think maybe I applied an idea to a term without thinking too much about reality. I actually came to think of high treason while considering if what I said made sense or not.

The example I gave is quite real - I came to think of something rather recent and quite horrible. In 2006, Swedish prime minister Göran Persson lied in commenting a decision taken by the parliament, where his party made an agreement with another party. He said that they had decided to "stop immigration, because that is what the Swedish public wants". This statement was blown up to immense proportions in the mass media and was presented as a "scandal". It was a scandal, but not in the way they made it seem. Because when that year had come to its closure half a year or so later, immigration for that year was an all time record, higher than any other year before that. But this was hardly commented at all in the mass media.

So they didn't stop immigration, and they never intended to; he just said so. I think it would be very convenient and just if he really could be punished for such a thing.

Goran Persson may have committed a crime, such a criminal misconduct, when he made that claim. There may also be official documents which would make a criminal or civil case even stronger.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Vincent

Of course it's not right. But why didn't you construct your question different then? Maybe: Should the lying of a countries governance in state matters be treated like a crime? (if this action goes clearly against the constitution, or the common interest of citizens)

In this case my answer is 'yes'. But 'Should lying be a crime?' is to broad for me. Doesn't it assume that all lies should be dealt like crimes? If that is what you meant, my answer is 'no'.

I want it to be a broad discussion, where many different aspects of lying and related concepts, such as truth and reality, can be discussed. I had no specific intention other than that.

[Waarnemer]

Human interaction is simply too complex for determining a solid opinion on lying, lying is not moral, but then neither is most of global human, social interaction. Lying is a useful tool in social interactions, one of many.

You can't make it a crime.

[Strengthandhonour]

Absolutely not.
Lying is a part of us..it's part of being human. It's impossible not to lie. We can try not to lie, but sometimes we just have that desire to do so.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Strengthandhonour

Absolutely not.
Lying is a part of us..it's part of being human. It's impossible not to lie. We can try not to lie, but sometimes we just have that desire to do so.

I don't think that a desire to lie is enough to justify it.

I don't think it's acceptable, just not severe enough to be treated as a crime.
However, I think certain positions of powers in society such as politicians, lying can be treated as a crime.

[Waarnemer]

Originally Posted by Gnist

You just offered two opinions.

Only that lying isn't really moral. The idea that a lie is a tool within social interaction is part of Systems Theory that regards society.

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Making lying in general a crime is impossible. There are many cases in which you must lie in order to survive, for example, when you are concealing some information from your enemy or from the oppressive and unjust government. That lying should be avoided and not practiced and that sicerity should be encouraged, is part of a sound moral teaching. So lying should be avoided in all cases, except in the two mentioned above.

And hypocrisy - which is nothing else that lying turned into a system - is already a crime, in the moral sense, although not in the judicial one. Maybe that should be banned and /or made a crime.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

Human interaction is simply too complex for determining a solid opinion on lying, lying is not moral, but then neither is most of global human, social interaction. Lying is a useful tool in social interactions, one of many.

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

Only that lying isn't really moral. The idea that a lie is a tool within social interaction is part of Systems Theory that regards society.

I don't want to misinterpret what you said, so: When you say that lying is not moral, do you mean that it is amoral or morally bad, or do you mean that lies are not even within the scope of ethics?