Identity and Birth

[Arin]

This is kinda just a simple question that has been bothering me for some time now, but Are you always where you were born? as in say, if Jane Doe was born in, say... the US, is 'Jane Doe' always an American even if she migrates to another nation and obtains citizenship of said nation? This was risen from a discussion on another topic where someone referred to Rupert Murdoch as an Australian even though he has US citizenship which confused me, anyhow what do you think?

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Arin

This is kinda just a simple question that has been bothering me for some time now, but Are you always where you were born? as in say, if Jane Doe was born in, say... the US, is 'Jane Doe' always an American even if she migrates to another nation and obtains citizenship of said nation? This was risen from a discussion on another topic where someone referred to Rupert Murdoch as an Australian even though he has US citizenship which confused me, anyhow what do you think?

If you were born as a member of a certain nation, you remain the part of that nation until you die. If a person migrates to another country and takes that country's citizenship, it doesn't mean that his/her nationality changes.
For example, if you have a place of residence in Sweden, it doesn't mean you're a Swede.

[Freebooter]

Originally Posted by Arin

This is kinda just a simple question that has been bothering me for some time now, but Are you always where you were born? as in say, if Jane Doe was born in, say... the US, is 'Jane Doe' always an American even if she migrates to another nation and obtains citizenship of said nation? This was risen from a discussion on another topic where someone referred to Rupert Murdoch as an Australian even though he has US citizenship which confused me, anyhow what do you think?

I was born in Canada, which means I'm stuck with that citizenship for life. Here, there is something called 'dual citizenship' where you are able to be a citizen in two different countries simultaneously - one being Canada and the other being your nation of origin or the nation you have migrated to.

It's idiotic and it is often exploited. One recent example of exploitation that I recall is the wave of Lebanese coming to Canada after the outbreak of 2006 Lebanon War between Israel and Lebanon. People who were either born in Canada or who acquired Canadian citizenship but were spending most of their lives in Lebanon conveniently sought asylum in Canada to escape the war (not that I blame them) despite probably never having contributed anything to Canada in any fashion, certainly not in the ways of paying taxes.

It's unfortunate for me because as much as I appreciate what Canada has given to my family and I, I really, really want to cut all connections and associations with this country, and I know that will never be fully possible.

[Susi]

Vas: It is possible to revoke one's Canadian citizenship.

[Freebooter]

Originally Posted by Susi

Vas: It is possible to revoke one's Canadian citizenship.

I was aware. I was thinking more along the lines of Portuguese, when I move there, identifying me as Canadian. It's a major concern of mine.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Vasconcelos

I was born in Canada, which means I'm stuck with that citizenship for life. Here, there is something called 'dual citizenship' where you are able to be a citizen in two different countries simultaneously - one being Canada and the other being your nation of origin or the nation you have migrated to.

It's idiotic and it is often exploited. One recent example of exploitation that I recall is the wave of Lebanese coming to Canada after the outbreak of 2006 Lebanon War between Israel and Lebanon. People who were either born in Canada or who acquired Canadian citizenship but were spending most of their lives in Lebanon conveniently sought asylum in Canada to escape the war (not that I blame them) despite probably never having contributed anything to Canada in any fashion, certainly not in the ways of paying taxes.

I think there are many who see citizenship as a piece of paper and nothing more. The Lebanese in particular have very little understanding of "nationality". The can understand "clan", "religion" or "political faction", but "nationality" is an alien concept.

With a few rare exceptions, Jews have a similar mentality.

Originally Posted by Vasconcelos

It's unfortunate for me because as much as I appreciate what Canada has given to my family and I, I really, really want to cut all connections and associations with this country, and I know that will never be fully possible.

I don't think it's necessary to turn your back on the Canadian part of your character. "I am a part of all that I have met" as the poem says. I don't much like Toronto but the rest of Canada is quite good. Canada never set out to be the New Jerusalem dreamt of by the Yankees to the south and so Canadians have not been steeped in the concept of Europe as a corrupt Babylon.

[Freebooter]

Originally Posted by Errigal

I don't think it's necessary to turn your back on the Canadian part of your character. "I am a part of all that I have met" as the poem says.

Perhaps, but I'm not sure that there is a Canadian part of my character. At least not one that I can see or one which I'd be interested in having.

Originally Posted by Errigal

I don't much like Toronto but the rest of Canada is quite good.

Quite true. I don't dislike Canada, of course. As I've said in the past I have a certain respect and gratefulness for Canada and Canadians which I will hold probably for the rest of my life. But aside from the fact that my allegiance is with another nation, I've always felt out of place here.

[Strengthandhonour]

I was born in Central America and I have dual citizenship. I don't have much of a problem with it. When people ask, I just tell them the truth. I have nothing to hide. I still always consider myself an Italian, when people ask what part I tell them that I wasn't born there due to where my parents were living at the time but I tell them the town my family is from in Italy.
In Italy there is some nationalist movements that promote the return of Italians from the US,Argentina,Australia,etc to come back home. This can be seen as both positive or negative, but when you think about it..the ones who do want to come back are the ones who have a strong admiration for their people as well as a powerful bond to their culture. It is a complicated topic for sure. From experience a lot of the Italians I know overseas in situations such as mine don't care much about being Italian and identify more with the culture of the country where they were born. My parents always made sure to raise me the "Italian" way and to return home to live every few years so I woudln't go out of touch with that.

[Occidentian]

Originally Posted by Arin

This is kinda just a simple question that has been bothering me for some time now, but Are you always where you were born? as in say, if Jane Doe was born in, say... the US, is 'Jane Doe' always an American even if she migrates to another nation and obtains citizenship of said nation? This was risen from a discussion on another topic where someone referred to Rupert Murdoch as an Australian even though he has US citizenship which confused me, anyhow what do you think?

No, you can revoke your original citizenship, and it was the STANDARD to do so when people emigrated in the past (i.e. Europeans coming to the US).

Only in recent times (the 20th Century) has dual citizenship become more possible than the extreme exceptions that used to exist.

Anyway, ashamed of the US much and thinking of doing it?

[Arin]

If you were born as a member of a certain nation, you remain the part of that nation until you die. If a person migrates to another country and takes that country's citizenship, it doesn't mean that his/her nationality changes.

That's ridiculous, so the Jews who were born in Russia, the US etc... who migrated to Israel aren't actually Israelis Or what about a girl born in the US to Chinese parents?

Anyway, ashamed of the US much and thinking of doing it?

Australia actually, and I'm not ashamed of it I just think that someone who creams their pants over citizenship of a geographical border of the time being such forever is a bit odd.

[Susi]

Originally Posted by Vasconcelos

I was aware. I was thinking more along the lines of Portuguese, when I move there, identifying me as Canadian. It's a major concern of mine.

Originally Posted by Vasconcelos

But aside from the fact that my allegiance is with another nation, I've always felt out of place here.

Yeah, I understand what you mean and I have the same feeling entirely.

Originally Posted by Occidentian

Anyway, ashamed of the US much and thinking of doing it?

Canada, actually. And no I am not ashamed, I feel that I am English and not Canadian, plus I feel at home there and not here.

Originally Posted by Arin

I just think that someone who creams their pants over citizenship of a geographical border of the time being such forever is a bit odd.

I think one can go too far in this, yes. But if we get into the difference of a nation and a state, the citizenship might matter more in some instances...

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Arin

That's ridiculous, so the Jews who were born in Russia, the US etc... who migrated to Israel aren't actually Israelis Or what about a girl born in the US to Chinese parents?

Jews are Jews wherever they go. As for the Chinese girl you'll have to ask her.

Originally Posted by Arin

Australia actually, and I'm not ashamed of it I just think that someone who creams their pants over citizenship of a geographical border of the time being such forever is a bit odd.

Firstly, don't be vulgar. Secondly, I could not have a more different view than yours. My family's nationality has always been Irish, when the border was drawn our citizenship changed but our nationality stayed the same.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Arin

That's ridiculous, so the Jews who were born in Russia, the US etc... who migrated to Israel aren't actually Israelis Or what about a girl born in the US to Chinese parents?

The place of birth doesn't change one's nationality. We have many tourists in Croatia during the summertime, and it can occur that a foreign child(let's say French) is born here, but that does not change the fact that he/she is French.

[Arin]

The place of birth doesn't change one's nationality. We have many tourists in Croatia during the summertime, and it can occur that a foreign child(let's say French) is born here, but that does not change the fact that he/she is French.

So I'm British even though i was born in Australia to British parents? I mean I'm not doubting you, I even somewhat agree I'm just interested.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Arin

So I'm British even though i was born in Australia to British parents? I mean I'm not doubting you, I even somewhat agree I'm just interested.

Yes, if you feel British, and your heritage lies in Britain, you're British.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Arin

So I'm British even though i was born in Australia to British parents? I mean I'm not doubting you, I even somewhat agree I'm just interested.

Where a person is born is obviously just an accident of birth. We can all think of famous people who are, say French or Irish down to their bones who by chance were born outside their country. (Éamon de Valera's birth in New York is a good example.)

The question is simply: who are your people and where is your place?

Originally Posted by Bardyllis

Yes, if you feel British, and your heritage lies in Britain, you're British.

I would have to disagree with you slightly. I think the bonds have to be stronger than just feeling a connection one's parent's homeland.

In any case, Britishness is unique in some ways because of the imperial link with countries like Australia and Canada and the much weaker bonds with Commonwealth countries. This has now come to bite the natives of Great Britian in the ass because they have a stream of long-lost imperial subjects from around the globe saying "I'z iz British too, yeah!". The French Republic has a similar problem; all those dark fellows who grew up drinking a Bordeaux with their grilled monkey are convinced they're as French as de Gaulle.