Iberia, the cradle of the Celts?

[Menydh]

I was a little surprised by this article that I read over at I-N. I believe that it was known --or fairly assumed-- that the Celtiberians were Gaullish Celts. But the rest of all other Celts in Iberia was not as clear. More surprising here is the speculation that Tartessian might have been a Celtic language. Tartessos, an ancient high civilization, was in SW Iberia. But it dissappeared and one of the theories is that it might have been the Celts who destroyed it. The Turdetani are believed to be the descendents of Tartessians.

Our Celtic roots lie in Spain and Portugal

icWales
May 5,, 2008


THE Welsh have more in common with sun-kissed glamour pusses like actress Penelope Cruz and footballer Christiano Ronaldo than pale- faced Germans like Helmet Kohl, according to an academic.

Professor John Koch suggests the Welsh can trace their ancestry back to Portugal and Spain, debunking the century-old received wisdom that our forebears came from Iron Age Germany and Austria.

His radical work on Celtic origins flatly contradicts the writing of Sir John Rhys, who in the late 19th century established the idea that we originally came from central Europe.

Sir John believed the Celts were the remnants of a great culture that extended here from modern-day eastern France, Switzerland, southern Germany and Austria.

But Professor Koch, of the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh & Celtic Studies, in Aberystwyth, says archaeological inscriptions on stones show we came from southern Portugal and south-west Spain.

He said: “Celts are said to come from west central Europe – Austria, southern Germany, eastern France and that part of the world.

“That’s been the theory that everybody has grown up with for at least 100 years.

“There is evidence that the Celtic languages were spoken there because of place names and people’s names.

“But the assumption was that was where they came from. I think they got there later.

“There is evidence in Spain and Portugal indicating they were there 500 or more years before.”

Professor Koch says there are Celtic texts in Portugal and Spain way before they started springing up in central Europe during Roman times.

One key piece of evidence is the earliest written language of western Europe – Tartessian, found on inscribed stones in Portugal and Spain dating back to between 800BC and 400BC. The professor maintains this language can be deciphered as Celtic.

Expert on Welsh history and archaeology Dr Raimund Karl, says there is also biological and genetic evidence to support professor Koch’s theory.

He said: “In the last couple of years there have been a number of genetic studies of human DNA indicating that the population of much of the western part of the British Isles is related to other communities along the Atlantic seafront. These include Brittany, northern Spain, Portugal and the French Atlantic coast. That’s their genetic origin.”

But Dr Karl, of the University of Wales, Bangor, said there is also archaeological evidence suggesting a cultural link with central Europe.

“There is evidence suggesting a link with central Europe from elite-material culture – stuff associated with the upper parts of society. This includes weaponry, feasting equipment, artwork on jewellery and other prestigious items.”

However the academic said attempts to identify a biological Celt or notions of cultures emanating from a particular spot are meaningless. He believes human cultures and populations are constantly in a state of flux, drawing their influences from far and wide.

Dr Karl, himself an Austrian, added: “I personally think the question of where Celtic culture originated is by and large meaningless. Culture is constantly changing and never has a single point of origin.

“The biological Celt is meaningless because human populations inter-mingle.”

Professor Koch will speak at Bangor University tomorrow at the main arts theatre at 6pm


[source]

[Delbáeth]

It appears that genetics are being used as the established link?

Is it not plausable that the populations of the Isles did indeed migrate up the Atlantic coast, though they never adapted Celtic culture untill after they settled here?

[Truth-Finder]

If I remember well, the Irish Book of invasions claimed that celtik speaking peoples migrated from Spain;
The celtic culture might have come from Austria and South germany in to the Iberian peninsula and after absorbing iberian genes, they would have passed in to Ireland...

[Amorsite]

Originally Posted by Truth-Finder

If I remember well, the Irish Book of invasions claimed that celtik speaking peoples migrated from Spain;
The celtic culture might have come from Austria and South germany in to the Iberian peninsula and after absorbing iberian genes, they would have passed in to Ireland...

That's what Coon believed, at least for the Goidels. Keltic Nordics are a minority type in the Isles anyway. A genetic link with Iberia is far more likely via UP types (Bruenns). Morphologically Keltic Nordics are unmistakable Eastern Meds.

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Truth-Finder

If I remember well, the Irish Book of invasions claimed that celtik speaking peoples migrated from Spain;
The celtic culture might have come from Austria and South germany in to the Iberian peninsula and after absorbing iberian genes, they would have passed in to Ireland...

The most sensible view to take is that there were in fact several migrations of Celtic speakers to Ireland, from different geographical regions, of different linguistic types, and with differing physical anthropological heritages.

The Lebor Gabala, or Book of Invasions, has to be read very carefully. What many Celtophiles and interested observers fail to realise is that the work was a highly political text, and has been described by respected Hibernicists as not much short of a deliberate falsification and distortion of the true history of the peopling of Ireland. I would refer the interested to T. F. O'Rahilly's History and Mythology of Early Ireland (or whatever it's called, it's something like that anyway!), as he argues it much better than I could. The fact that I refrain from completely paraphrasing him or attempting to encapsulate his arguments, is the fact that the subject is so horrendously complicated in real life that we couldn't possibly hope to satisfactorily discuss it on a mere Forum.

What we are dealing with in the present time is the result of peculiar historical circumstances whereby the layman has in huge numbers gained access to the primary texts that discuss his ancient past, and yet has not been sufficiently exposed to the generations of criticism of these texts that built up before their mass publication. Thus, people are voraciously reading and trying to make sense of it all themselves, from first principles, without any guidance. Those who have delved a little deeper are thus put in the position of having to reinvent the wheel, and argue points that should have been settled a century ago!

Ireland does seem to have received Celtic migrants from Galicia sort of area, but this may have been the last wave of Celtic migrants to the island, after the initial bringers of IE speech seem to have trickled through via Britain, later Belgic and Dumnonian waves came from respectively northeastern and Armorican Gaul by a mixture of land routes and the more direct passage up through the Irish Sea.

As for Wales, well, there's all sorts of non-Celtic substrates going on, as there is all over the Isles, and for Koch to simplify this to get sensationalist headlines demonstrates to me that he is little other than a self-interested showman. He's puzzled me in the past, with his often maverick theories, so don't be surprised if we hear more of him in future, as he attempts to ride other up and coming trends in public life - as he is doing here with this poorly understood adoption of genetic science.

[Delbáeth]

Originally Posted by Truth-Finder

If I remember well, the Irish Book of invasions claimed that celtik speaking peoples migrated from Spain;

Yes, the Milesians.

Lebor Gabála Érenn (The Book of the Taking of Ireland) is the Middle Irish title of a loose collection of poems and prose narratives recounting the mythical origins and history of the Irish race from the creation of the world down to the Middle Ages. It cannot be taken as a srious historical account of the origins of the Irish race. Though it does offer quite an insight into what my ancestors believed.

I mean, you don't think that the Tuatha Dé Danann who arrived on Dark clouds from the north were flying vikings do you ?

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Delbáeth

Though it does offer quite an insight into what my ancestors believed.

I'd even take issue with that, and say that it's an insight into what the literati working for the Gaelic and Gaelicised Ascendancy wanted our ancestors to believe!

I mean, you don't think that the Tuatha Dé Danann who arrived on Dark clouds from the north were flying vikings do you ?

Heretic!

[Delbáeth]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

I'd even take issue with that, and say that it's an insight into what the literati working for the Gaelic and Gaelicised Ascendancy wanted our ancestors to believe!

I respectfully disagree. I think that such works have given us greater insights into the Celtic past of the Isles far greater than any of these modern studies.

Mind you, alot of these modern studies are based of such works .

Heretic!

!

[Agrippa]

The only possible link I can imagine is much older and refers to the Bell Beakers, which origin is still a mystery somewhat. Those spread probably from the South West and their long term influences in Central Europe are hard to estimate, since they disappear as a distinctive ethnosocial and racial-typological group mostly, mainly through admixture we could assume.

[bioblitzkrieg]

I think the earlier or founding Celts may have possessed a significant amount of Haplogroup I1b along with R1b, as thier homeland was more in west central Europe than west europe proper, in times further past an even more eastern origin may have come into play for the proto celtic homeland, initially involving perhaps very little R1b. By the time they are first noted by roman authorities, a western settlement of celtic peoples was already long established in Iberia and the British Isles, but we dont know if these areas were celticized by cultural or ethnic transference, I believe it was more cultural with only limited physical migration, leaving the indigenous populations largely unaltered "until anglo-saxon times". So in effect, as the Celtic world was pushed further to the west by Germanic and Roman powers, the peoples who were now the celts had only a marginal direct genetic relationship to the founders of the earlier celtic cultures who were to the east. So today R1b is the strongest marker for Celtic peoples, but just as the non northwesternmost celtic peoples of today speak french, spanish and english under thier contemporary nations, further east , an even older substratum of celtic heritage is present in modern day Czech republic, Austria, Hungary and Switzerland.

Perhaps prior to western settlement, the cultural boundries of the early celts largely coincided with the Hallstatt and proceding La tene cultures.
8th Century BC

3rd Century BC