A Pagan Tale

[Susi]

Originally Posted by Milesian

I didn't think you were, you seem uncharacteristically reasonable based on past posts.

Yes, I guess that sounds about right? ._. I'm also uncharacteristically reasonable for being female too, but I have my slip ups.

Sure, Chistianity often adopted/adapted the old customs and traditions to itself. Our sacred groves and springs became holy wells and grottos.

I didn't mean so much "adapting the old customs" as just "being added to"... at that point in time. Yes, though, I would agree about this "adaptation"

I'd hazard to say that there remains far more of our old ways within traditional Christianity than there ever was in the new reconstructed "pagan" ways found today.

I like how you say "hazard". I won't bite your head off on this one. Most "pagans" don't bother to do the hours of reading and research it requires to reconstruct a religion. They just want to be, basically, as you have said about them (Anti-Chrisitan people who just want to do what they want, rather than what is the right thing to do or what should be done).

I think you misunderstand me.

It's in my nature to make silly misunderstandings. I understand what you mean now...

who like to indulge themselves in various vices and pleasures and then justify it through a belief system that not only does not chastise them for such behaviour but even lauds it.

It is important for an Asatruar to be honourable which in my opinion, tells us that we should not and can not commit many of these vices that are committed. Even in the Havamal it says to avoid excessive drinking, for example.

Originally Posted by Havamal 11, 12, 14

A better burden can no man bear
on the way than his mother wit:
and no worse provision can he carry with him
than too deep a draught of ale.

Less good than they say for the sons of men
is the drinking oft of ale:
for the more they drink, the less can they think
and keep a watch o'er their wits.

Drunk was I then, I was over drunk
in that crafty Jötun's court.
But best is an ale feast when man is able
to call back his wits at once.

Et cetera, et cetera.. It's all there if you look, really.

against gluttony:

Originally Posted by Havamal 20

A greedy man, if he be not mindful,
eats to his own life's hurt:
oft the belly of the fool will bring him to scorn
when he seeks the circle of the wise.

and if you really want a more relevant quotation...

Originally Posted by Havamal 22

The miserable man and evil minded
makes of all things mockery,
and knows not that which he best should know,
that he is not free from faults.

but I refuse to try and justify my actions.

Vice can never be "justified", it can just be hidden under the carpet until someone comes across it and the excrement hits the fan. Or something like that. I'd agree with you totally on this one.

If you are going to do it then be prepared to accept your actions for what they are.

Another thing that I think: One's actions are one's own and one should accept responsibility about it...

I simply see some people using their Anti-Christianity as a form of denial and comfort.

Agreed... I think it is stupid to be "anti-Christian". It is more logical to be "anti-Pagan" . In all honesty, I'd rather the company of Christians than of the majority of my fellow "pagans" and Asatruar.

Naturally, I am addressing a stereotype commonly found within these circles.

Quite the more commonly the more time you spend with these people..

I do not intend to mean this is what you or everyone else are like.

It's not what I'm like, but the others.. I am not so sure.

I don't see what is insulting about it. It seems a rather true observation does it not?

It is because he says "The pagan" rather than "the man".. though I rarely identify myself using the word "Pagan".. But it is a good observation..

My Church never burned witches. In fact it enacted the Inquisition expressly to protect people such mob mentaility 7 decreed that no-one could be tried for witchcraft on account of the fact that after investigation it considered no such practices to be taking place.

I'm not going "OMG THE BURNING TYMES" like Wiccans. I am merely trying to push the idea that Christianity isn't as "innocent" in this matter (of taking out certain "traditions") as well as it is purported to be.

It is well not confuse gothic fiction with historical reality. If other did engage in some practices then they will have to answer such charges for themselves.

Which is why Henry VIII had one of his wives executed for witchcraft...? I know this was purely political, but still.. I'm not really going to split hairs on this one..

The point of bringing it up was to assert that Christianity has also changed over time as well.

, they think only they should be allowed to point out the faults (or what they imagine to be the faults) in others, but I'm afraid the real world doesn't work that way

It is important, I think, to consider one's faults.

[Susi]

Originally Posted by Strengthandhonour

The problem with pagans is that they like to play victim and aggressor at the same time. For example, when they are in a forum that they are the minority they jump down the throats of the christian members claiming how they destroyed their religion and people.
Yet, try being a christian and joining a pagan forum. See how long it takes you to get banned.

I do not! *pouts*

I guess I am just a minority in the "pagan community".

But yes, Christians do go quickly in "pagan" places. But so do people who disagree with them. I'm banned from my local pagan "group" online, but I don't think they know what I look like, because I've seen them when I'm out and about and I've had quite pleasant chats with them.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Strengthandhonour

The problem with pagans is that they like to play victim and aggressor at the same time. For example, when they are in a forum that they are the minority they jump down the throats of the christian members claiming how they destroyed their religion and people.
Yet, try being a christian and joining a pagan forum. See how long it takes you to get banned.

Yes, this is something I was going to mention and compare it with a similar trait displayed by a certain other group. But I decided not to

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Susi

Yes, I guess that sounds about right? ._. I'm also uncharacteristically reasonable for being female too, but I have my slip ups.

As we both agreed, no-one is perfect

I didn't mean so much "adapting the old customs" as just "being added to"... at that point in time. Yes, though, I would agree about this "adaptation"

Of course, the essence is that incorporating such customs did not really affect the core of the Christian faith. If it was not opposed to it, then why destroy it. If anything, much of our pagan past is accessible only because it was preserved and copied by medieval monks. This is not the act of a people hell bent on cultural destruction.

I like how you say "hazard". I won't bite your head off on this one

Well, I dont claim to know for certain. Anyone who does is suspect in my book. But I already gave examples of sacred groves, deities becoming saints, etc. Even the concept of a trinity is readily understandable within the contexts of Irish paganism (which casts doubt over the veracity of the shamrock story ). On the other hand, people dressed in white robes chanting this or that outside some passage tomb during the winter solstice whilst using the healing powers of crystals inscribed with ogham would probably utterly confuse any ancient pagan if they were around to see it. Much the same way as a modern Neo-Pagan would likely be horrified to witness an authentic pagan Tarbhfheis or a ritual triple-fold killing.

It is important for an Asatruar to be honourable which in my opinion, tells us that we should not and can not commit many of these vices that are committed. Even in the Havamal it says to avoid excessive drinking, for example.



Et cetera, et cetera.. It's all there if you look, really.

against gluttony:


and if you really want a more relevant quotation...

In other words, everything here can also be found in Christianity.
Makes you wonder what they are so riled up about.

Vice can never be "justified", it can just be hidden under the carpet until someone comes across it and the excrement hits the fan. Or something like that. I'd agree with you totally on this one.

Vice can never truly be justified, you are right.
It doesn't stop plenty of people trying, unfortunately.
It is a sad truth that the most convincing liar is usually yourself.

Another thing that I think: One's actions are one's own and one should accept responsibility about it...

Yes, more on this a little later...

Agreed... I think it is stupid to be "anti-Christian". It is more logical to be "anti-Pagan" . In all honesty, I'd rather the company of Christians than of the majority of my fellow "pagans" and Asatruar.

Well, people are people.
I would assume there are plenty of Christians out there, at least nominal Christians, whom I would not enjoy company with. And I'd bet that there are plenty of non-Christians whose company I would enjoy immensely.
Same might not be said for Anti-Christians however. One should never be expected to tolerate fools.....

It's not what I'm like, but the others.. I am not so sure.

lol - That's very jaded of you

It is because he says "The pagan" rather than "the man".. though I rarely identify myself using the word "Pagan"..

What he is describing is the decadence of the old classical pagan civilisations.
Babylon, Egypt, Rome.....all succumbed to decadence.
Of course, the same may be said about Christian civilisation in our times.
That is arguable however, because one cannot truly say that our modern, secular, liberal, materialistic, immoral society is anything remotely Christian.
In fact, the rot set in as Christianity began being dismantled.
Is it unreasonable to say that as society grew further from the Christian ideal, the more decadent and corrupt it became? Chesterton was looking back with an eye on the fate of such old civilisations. He is saying that is one of the reasons for their demise and why they were overcome in the end.

But it is a good observation..

Yes, undeniably whether in the scale of the individual or the society

I'm not going "OMG THE BURNING TYMES" like Wiccans.

lol, is that what they call it?
It reminds me of the faux Old English used in films or by tacky Disney-esque tourist attractions. "Ye Olde Gifte Shop" and other such dyslexic nonsense.

I am merely trying to push the idea that Christianity isn't as "innocent" in this matter (of taking out certain "traditions") as well as it is purported to be.



Which is why Henry VIII had one of his wives executed for witchcraft...?

This bring me back to what you said earlier - "One's actions are one's own and one should accept responsibility about it"

Indeed, so little point then in ascribing to a religion the actions of one wayward individual.

Regardless, I take no responsibility for old Hank's actions.
By definition, he technically wasn't even considered to be Christian after what my Church deems his apostasy. That said, he did some unexpected good work before then...... anyway, I digress

I know this was purely political, but still.. I'm not really going to split hairs on this one..

Well, as we both know it to be political then there is little point of course

The point of bringing it up was to assert that Christianity has also changed over time as well.

I'm not sure where you are going with this one or it's relevance to what has preceeded, but I'll entertain it if you care to elaborate

It is important, I think, to consider one's faults.

Yes agreed. In fact, I'd go further. It is absolutely essential.
Did not some unfashionable obscure Semite once say - "First take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye"?

[Susi]

Of course, the essence is that incorporating such customs did not really affect the core of the Christian faith. If it was not opposed to it, then why destroy it. If anything, much of our pagan past is accessible only because it was preserved and copied by medieval monks. This is not the act of a people hell bent on cultural destruction.

Yes, I would agree. Many of the Sagas were written after they occurred when the written word became more popular (between the late 11th and early 15th centuries I believe. The conversion was around 999-1000ad).

On the other hand, people dressed in white robes chanting this or that outside some passage tomb during the winter solstice whilst using the healing powers of crystals inscribed with ogham would probably utterly confuse any ancient pagan if they were around to see it.

And cause much riotous laughter for other people..

Much the same way as a modern Neo-Pagan would likely be horrified to witness an authentic pagan Tarbhfheis or a ritual triple-fold killing.

"Harm none"... need I say more? One of the Wiccan tenets..

In other words, everything here can also be found in Christianity.

It's still different.

Makes you wonder what they are so riled up about.

They probably haven't even read it.. The Havamal is a story as well as advice..

Vice can never truly be justified, you are right.
It doesn't stop plenty of people trying, unfortunately.
It is a sad truth that the most convincing liar is usually yourself.

Why are you so much better at wording things than I am?

Well, people are people.
I would assume there are plenty of Christians out there, at least nominal Christians, whom I would not enjoy company with.

Maybe my view on the relative enjoyment of company with Christians has been tainted (for the better..) by my time on Stirpes...

And I'd bet that there are plenty of non-Christians whose company I would enjoy immensely.

Like Susi? ._.

lol - That's very jaded of you

Well... it's true. I can't help being like this after everything I've seen attempting to participate in "the community" for 3 years. No one ever shows up on time. I had made a picnic/planned a discussion of some books recently and only one person showed up on time.. actually, only one person showed up, out of about 15 who said they were coming. Needless to say, I was left with a lot of food to eat. *makes a face*

That is arguable however, because one cannot truly say that our modern, secular, liberal, materialistic, immoral society is anything remotely Christian.
In fact, the rot set in as Christianity began being dismantled.

I don't think that the Norse really "descended" into decadence at any point. But this is just my opinion. I would agree that without a solid base (for example Christianity) to stand on, the society will rot. That is why religion is important.

Is it unreasonable to say that as society grew further from the Christian ideal, the more decadent and corrupt it became?

Not unreasonable, but some things have changed for the better. I like having rights...

lol, is that what they call it?
It reminds me of the faux Old English used in films or by tacky Disney-esque tourist attractions. "Ye Olde Gifte Shop" and other such dyslexic nonsense.

Well I was just maybe being a little facetious.. But yes, they do call it "The Burning Times". Here's something I found when I looked it up: The Burning Times

*shakes head*

This bring me back to what you said earlier - "One's actions are one's own and one should accept responsibility about it"

He justified his actions using religion.

Indeed, so little point then in ascribing to a religion the actions of one wayward individual.

See above.

I'm not sure where you are going with this one or it's relevance to what has preceeded, but I'll entertain it if you care to elaborate

I'm attempting to elaborate... but no really good example comes to mind. I just mean that things change in all religions. Like the end of the Latin Mass (and now its return).

Did not some unfashionable obscure Semite once say - "First take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye"?

Who?

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Susi

Yes, I would agree. Many of the Sagas were written after they occurred when the written word became more popular (between the late 11th and early 15th centuries I believe. The conversion was around 999-1000ad).

Exactly. Yet some people would have us believe that the "Christians" were some bunch of aliens who rampaged around the place destroying people, places and cultures. They must be getting confused with those Vikings again . Seriously though, for people who claim to be deeply interested in venerating their ancestors, I can think of little more disrespectful than scorning their conversion to Christianity. So were they really just ignorant fools? Of course, a nice way to get round this is to claim that no-one willingly converted to Christianity. It was all done at the point of a sword.
Perhaps that can be passed off as an excuse for other peoples. But for my own, this is not even remotely true. My people were only too glad to be free of their fickle, cruel, bloodthirsty deities and willingly and bloodlessly embraced the Cross. The Christian God was not seen as an oppressive judge, but as a welcome liberator. Our history does not allow us to entertain a romanticised view of our pagan past.
It is no coincidence that our Golden Age coincided with the establishment of Christianity. And it continued until a group of pagans from the north-east decided to visit for a friendly spot of rape and pillage

And cause much riotous laughter for other people..

Assuming they would even care enough to notice in the first place.

"Harm none"... need I say more? One of the Wiccan tenets..

Is Woodstock the Wiccan Mecca?

They probably haven't even read it.. The Havamal is a story as well as advice..

The paganism usually takes a backseat to the real fun of being anti-Christian anyway

Why are you so much better at wording things than I am?

Am I? Do not mistake pompous language as being better.
Being straight to the point is always more important.
If I am anything, it is simply older. Or maybe it's just the whole Blarney Stone thing going on

Maybe my view on the relative enjoyment of company with Christians has been tainted (for the better..) by my time on Stirpes...

Tainted by Stirpes?
That's unfortunate. Perhaps the Christians here feel more free to speak their mind here, coupled with being embittered by bad experiences on other forums perhaps it leads them to use less tact and diplomatic words when speaking out (although I cannot say I personally have noticed this).
In any case, the lyrics about hunting people down with packs of dogs and mocking their beliefs is something I do not think you would see coming from a Christian. Sure, maybe we think such things. But we have far too much class to actually say them publicly

Like Susi? ._.

Awww...of course. How could I not include you

Well... it's true. I can't help being like this after everything I've seen attempting to participate in "the community" for 3 years. No one ever shows up on time. I had made a picnic/planned a discussion of some books recently and only one person showed up on time.. actually, only one person showed up, out of about 15 who said they were coming. Needless to say, I was left with a lot of food to eat. *makes a face*

Sorry to hear that.
I didn't realise there was such a "community".
Your energy & commitment are admirable ,but such youthful enthusiasm is often misplaced. I'm awfully biased as you surely know ( ), but please exercise caution with such people - especially if you don't really know them personally. I would be unhappy to think you might be taken advantage of by strangers (and I include internet acquaintances as "strangers").

I don't think that the Norse really "descended" into decadence at any point. But this is just my opinion. I would agree that without a solid base (for example Christianity) to stand on, the society will rot. That is why religion is important.

Yes, this is the opinion of many reasonable yet not necessarily religious people I have met.

Not unreasonable, but some things have changed for the better. I like having rights...

A man called Paul Traynor once wrote - "Any oppression can be re-forumulated as a so-called 'right' "

You'd be suprised though the rights granted to people in the past.
In many ways, they had far more rights than we do at present. Rights far more worthy of the name.

Well I was just maybe being a little facetious.. But yes, they do call it "The Burning Times". Here's something I found when I looked it up: The Burning Times

*shakes head*

Maybe I'll pluck up the courage to click that link someday.....

[/i]He justified his actions using religion.



See above.

Which no more makes it the fault of Christianity than if he were to convert to Asatru and then blame that for his actions.

I'm attempting to elaborate... but no really good example comes to mind. I just mean that things change in all religions. Like the end of the Latin Mass (and now its return).

I see what you are trying to say here, but this is a bad analogy.
The Tridentine Mass and it's fate are tied into much else going on in the Church. This is a thread, perhaps even a website, of it's own.

Who?

O Tempore, O Mores!

[Susi]

Originally Posted by Milesian

Exactly. Yet some people would have us believe that the "Christians" were some bunch of aliens who rampaged around the place destroying people, places and cultures. They must be getting confused with those Vikings again .

Now where did I put that battleaxe...?

Seriously though, for people who claim to be deeply interested in venerating their ancestors, I can think of little more disrespectful than scorning their conversion to Christianity. So were they really just ignorant fools?

Typical self-hating behaviour of such people...

And it continued until a group of pagans from the north-east decided to visit for a friendly spot of rape and pillage

Sorry? I guess I can tell you the old saying "Pillage first, then Burn"

Is Woodstock the Wiccan Mecca?

Possibly Wiccan-Fest which I heard all about once from some bizarre old guy who was CREEPTASTIC. Apparently he really enjoyed the nude beach. Then some other guy leapt in to the conversation talking about how he took his 6 year old son to this same beach and they saw a TRANNIE.

I almost had a heartattack. I asked him if he was concerned that this would be bad for his child and he just shrugged and said it was necessary for his child to learn about sexuality.. ._.

The paganism usually takes a backseat to the real fun of being anti-Christian anyway

See above anecdote.

Am I? Do not mistake pompous language as being better.
Being straight to the point is always more important.
If I am anything, it is simply older. Or maybe it's just the whole Blarney Stone thing going on

Pomposity is awesome. ._. But it's probably more likely that you're older.

Tainted by Stirpes?
That's unfortunate.

Nooo! I didn't mean in a bad way! I meant that it was in a way that I thought better of all Christians because of it. I guess I used the wrong word here, eh?

Perhaps the Christians here feel more free to speak their mind here, coupled with being embittered by bad experiences on other forums perhaps it leads them to use less tact and diplomatic words when speaking out (although I cannot say I personally have noticed this).

No, no, no... I wasn't complaining about this at all. I like how everyone is here. I just was saying that my impressions of other Christians are perhaps "tainted" in the fact that I already think more highly of them then I normally would.

In any case, the lyrics about hunting people down with packs of dogs and mocking their beliefs is something I do not think you would see coming from a Christian. Sure, maybe we think such things. But we have far too much class to actually say them publicly

Class... I'll show you class...

Another misunderstanding due to poor diction on my part. Sorry!

Awww...of course. How could I not include you

Can I come visit you even though I'm Anglo? ._.

Sorry to hear that.
I didn't realise there was such a "community".

Too bad it's crap and no one shows up and no one cares. It's so frustrating! They're all like how you say! *sigh*

Your energy & commitment are admirable ,but such youthful enthusiasm is often misplaced. I'm awfully biased as you surely know ( ), but please exercise caution with such people - especially if you don't really know them personally. I would be unhappy to think you might be taken advantage of by strangers (and I include internet acquaintances as "strangers").

I've known my godhi for 3 years now and wouldn't expect any ill of him. But others, I am cautious around at days like "Pagan Pride Day"...

You'd be suprised though the rights granted to people in the past.
In many ways, they had far more rights than we do at present. Rights far more worthy of the name.

But I want to vote.. ._.

Which no more makes it the fault of Christianity than if he were to convert to Asatru and then blame that for his actions.

No, because if you practised something like seidhr you'd just be called unmanly.

I see what you are trying to say here, but this is a bad analogy.
The Tridentine Mass and it's fate are tied into much else going on in the Church. This is a thread, perhaps even a website, of it's own.

*whithers* I triiiiied.