A Pagan Byzantium?

[Archangelos]

What would have happen if the Eastern Roman Empire had turned away from Christianity and returned to its Pagan Roots? Would this Pagan Empire have lasted as long? What would of happen to Western Civilization as a result of this?

[Gil]

Then probably the history of Europe and specially the Balcans would have been much different. Instead of alot of tribes and communities clinging on to christianity and fighting the turks then there would (probably) just be pagans who wouldn't mind becoming a part of the Ottoman empire as long as they were kept alone. Who knows?

[Archangelos]

So you think the Turks would have had an easier time taking the region? Ive come to think Christianity weaken our(Hellenes) will to fight wars. I would think if the Empire was able to last as long as it really did, we would have given the Ottomans heavy resistance, instead of running to our churches to pray, like so many did during the Fall of Constantinople.(Not saying that we did not put up a brave attempt at saving the Holy city. I personally see all those who fought during the last days of the Empire as Heros. i am only speaking about some of the accounts ive read)

[Gil]

Well, my view is that paganism or to be specific tribal religions indigenous to European ethnic groups do not implicitly indicate a stronger being or bravery as opposed to a "weak" or "feeble" christianity. Just check out the history books, it's because of the christian beliefs of the people of the Balkans that they stood against the turkish invaders. Religion can be used to unite a people against a common goal, for good and bad let me say it, and in the same way that you say "instead of running to our churches to pray", well, that's a matter of wanting to fight or not, if they were pagans they could run to their temples or to the woods or wherever and pray to their god(s).
I think a common trend nowadays is to confuse christianity with "feeble" and "weak" character and perhaps that is a notion that was created by the vast majority of cults present nowadays, which neither share the knowledge of the Bible correctly and interpret thing to their profit; as an example, I was discussing the other day with some other people about how homosexuality was condemned by the Bible and hence the Church and a wise guy and a girl (the guy a confessed gay) were saying that "their relation with God is only of their concern" and that "a loving God doesn't care about one's sexual choices". I then had to point out the various occasions in the Bible, supposedly their holy book, where homosexuality is condemned, but do you think they even listened? Blatant disregard for their own religious law! And they have the nerve to call themselves "Christians"!

Oh well, sorry for the off-topic post. I do believe that christianity was what brought some coesion to the fight against the turish muslims and the ack of it would have made the austrians our last resort against them (which they were later on).

[Archangelos]

First off, let me just say i agree with you on the gay thing, 100%!

Now back to the topic lol,

You're right that Christianity in the Balkans was very useful in National Uprises against the Turks during the end of Ottoman Rule. And it was a strong uniting factor during the period of Ottoman rule aswell. During the fall of Byzantium, you have a point, pagans may have run also to pray. I guess my view of Christianity being weak comes from the accounts of those unwilling to fight and that fact that Christianity's division aided the Weaken of the Empire, because of lack of aid and the Crusaders attack on Constantinople earlier. That and the fact that the Empire had been paying off Barbarians in the past. So you're right, its safe to say Religion may not have played a role in Fighting off the Turks. However, do you think it would have done anything to European Culture and Religious beliefs today?

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Archangelos

the Crusaders attack on Constantinople earlier.

Actually, it would be wrong to blame "Christianity" for that.
It was the secular rulers who inititaed that. The Pope actually condemned it and called for a halt to it.

[Gil]

I do believe Orthodox christianity might have been wiped out completely, or at least it's numbers greatly reduced. And as I said before, imagine that all the people from the Balkans were muslims. Imagine what that would mean: different cultures and a very different religion from what the majority of Europe professed. That would mean war, no doubt about that, and as I said, probably it would have been the Austrians and to some degree the italian nations to hold the line. In the long run the Ottoman empire fell because of both the corruption and the vast uprisings, caused in part because of religious factors, and even today these influences of the East in Europe have left their mark: Kosovo, Bosnia, etc...
I do think that this type of speculation is highly based in a "fantasy" setting and no one can say for sure but I bet that a pagan region wouldn't last long, specially with neighbours such as Christians and Muslims.

[Strengthandhonour]

If Byzantium would have remained pagan it would had been likely that a crusade would had been launched against them. Maybe there would had been not crusades at all since I know that the Byzantines asked for help to the pope against the muslims and that's how the crusades got started.

[Archangelos]

I recently was reading about the Crusade against Constantinople and it was mainly cause of the Venetians i believe...

[Menydh]

Interesting.

Most lands conquered by the Moslems in the Middle East were Pagans. The Arabs were Pagans themselves before converting to Islam.

Christianity provided an ideology, a "glue" for the lands of the Byzantine Empire sticked together.

What makes you think that it wouldn't have happened earlier.. and worse?

[Archangelos]

Interesting point. So you would say Christianity was the only reason Byzantium lasted as long as it did.

[Menydh]

No, not the only reason. What I'm saying is that it is not the reason why it crumbled.

At the time, Christianity was not of the type of a lot of peace-loving hippies with guitars singing hallelujah. As other religions, it provided people with a reason not to fear to go to combat and die.

Think about this. Once Constantinople fell, why should the rest of the territories fear the implantation of Islam and fight it, instead of willingly accepting it?

[Strengthandhonour]

I think Byzantium goes under-rates throughout history. They where one of the main defenders of European civilization in south eastern Europe. They fell due to having to defend against muslims and their own European brothers.

[Menydh]

Also, Paganism seems to have been weaker as a belief in people. Take the Romans as an example. Their belief in the gods was more between supersticious and a tradition than a real and strong belief.

Thus, accepting another religion was not that difficult if this religion adapted to the intended pagan audience. In my opinion Christianism was first adapted by Paul to a Greek and Roman audience, and then it went modelling itself after the host people.

[Awar]

For decades, Constantinople had problems with its levantine provinces because of
the heresies which prevaled there. The Arabs mainly took the areas which were in disarray already.

Add to that the fact that Justinian's adventurous conquests exhausted the imperial piggy-bank

Add to that the centuries long wars with Persians which weakened both sides into being
unable to repel Arabs. Both empires nearly fell at the same time. Thanks to many factors Byzantium survived, while Persia was no more.

Then, Byzantines began to reconquer teritories from the Caliphate, because of internal struggle among the Arabs. These Byzantine successes would have lasted if only the Arabs hand't signed their own death sentence.

Basically, they invited Islamized Turkic mercenaries from Central Asia. ( mainly Turkic peoples and Turkified Iranian nomad tribes ). This was in an era when Islam was nearing it's end in the middle-east. But, Turks simply prolonged it's life.
At the battle of Manzikert ( Manzigert ) in the 11th century, Turks dealt a near-fatal blow to Byzantium.

The internal problems of the empire were great, with large areas remaining unpopulated and left to Turks to settle.

Then came the Crusaders, and a few centuries later, Mehmed II.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, from this, I see a large empire whose main problems were bureaucracy, a few inept rulers and internal religious problems. So, it's impossible to say what would've happened without Christianity.

Persia would've still been a big problem for the empire, as well as the levantine provinces which tended to dissent in religious matters, there's no saying that a Pagan empire wouldn't have had religious problems of a similar nature, though I doubt that the problems would be so serious.

I don't see how a pagan Byzantium could have influenced the appearance of Turks on the stage of W.Asian history. The Persians fought them, the Arabs fought them for a long time, and then decided to import them. Too much to speculate on.

[Archangelos]

I guess the world will never know. . .

[Prinz Eugen]

I believe that emperor Paleologos who tried to have an agreement with catholics was right.Instead the Orthodox church fought him underground and wellcomed Mohamed as a saviour!If Byzantium adopted catholic faith i believe that the other catholics of Europe maybe helped Greeks to liberate from Ottomans sooner!
Orthodox church ,with some exeptions,was against any effort of revolution .Even 1821 Patriach execommunicated the revolutionaries!
Orthodox faith was a disaster for hellenic people!