Not quite Alpinid?

[Menydh]

As I keep seeing individuals from areas as far North as Scandinavia being classified as something-Alpinid, I wonder how this is possible so far from the kernel areas of the Alpinid types, if it is more some kind of especialiazation, or if something else.

Doing some searching I've found this on Dieneke's site, from Earnest A. Hooton's Up from the Ape (chapter on the Mediterranean Race):

A variant of this Upper Palaeolithic type in which the face is short and broad with laterally jutting cheek bones and square, flaring gonial (hinder jaw) angles is often identified as a modern Cro Magnon type. It was first thus designated by Collignon in the Dordogne region of central France, where Upper Palaeolithic man and the original Cro Magnon skeletons were found. Even here it seems probable that we are dealing with recombinations rather than pure line descendants. Other writers have recognized these so-called Cro Magnons in Scandinavia, central Europe, and elsewhere. The present writer still inclines to the belief, set forth in connection with a study of the Guanches of the Canary Islans (other alleged modern Cro Magnons), that this long-headed, short, broad-faced type orginarily arises as a ubstable hybridization product, the result of a cross between long-heads and brachycephals with short, broad faces, which latter are sometimes hafted to the long, narrow skulls of the Upper Palaeolithic type. A Mongoloid admixture often produces this combination. It may be seen in American Indians and also in the skulls of mediaeval Icelanders who are not without suspicion of having acquired a dash of Eksimo blood in connection with their colonization of Greenland. Lappish admixture might produce this type in Scandinavia.

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/hootonmed/

Interesting that this perceived Alpinoids could in fact be the result of admixture from Inuits and Saamis.

Also interesting that I usually perceive many real Alpinids as something Asian to my untrained eyes.

Any thoughts?

[Agrippa]

Such ideas were always discussed but finally the reason why Alpinids can look somewhat Asian is that they being brachycephalic, shortheaded and more infantile than other Europids, but all this traits and many others being just the result of the Alpinisation process. All races are in a way unstable and change over time, but Alpinids being even more rather a process. You can find Alpinisation almost everywhere and similar processes even in non-Europoid forms, with different degrees, with different exact facial traits, since the latter coming from mostly Cromagnoid source populations of different origin which became Alpinised over time.

The Cromagnid form is the much older one and Alpinisation is a rather new phenomenon (like Dinarisation), so one can hardly argue the way the mentioned author Hooton did, he's sijmply outdated on that me thinks.

However, Alpinids immigrated into Scandinavia (f.e. Walloon, German, French Alpinids) and there were, especially in South Western Norway, processes similar to the mainland Alpinisation trends which lead to local, though still more robust and Nordoid-Cromagnoid looking, Alpinoid variants (compare with "Strandid").

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

so one can hardly argue the way the mentioned author Hooton did, he's sijmply outdated on that me thinks.

I wouldn't dismiss it so quickly: http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?t=8317

Also in Central Europe one should consider the invasions of the Huns. Not just in the obvious areas (Hungary).

[Agrippa]

Mongoloid mixtures can look somewhat similar, but this can only explain the Aralid-Turanid like spectrum rather than proper Alpinids and can hardly be responsible for the major Alpinisation which happened in Europe. Both the genetic and archaeological data exclude that possibility and Alpinids though being reduced-infantilised still show all the more important characteristics of Europids. Its like a tall-narrow faced, even long headed Sinid, he is still Mongolid, like Alpinids being still Europid. The leptomorphic form and growth alone doesnt mean Europid : Mongolid, neither the brachycephalic or dolichocephalic skull. The Mongolid skull shape is quite different from the Alpinid one if looking at the details, some studies were posted by Dienekes me thinks which made that clear too.

[kyashan]

the reason why Alpinids can look somewhat Asian is that they being brachycephalic, shortheaded and more infantile than other Europids, but all this traits and many others being just the result of the Alpinisation process.

do you think this guy could be partly alpinid?

[Agrippa]

He looks somewhat strange going after that pictures, but yes, part Alpinid he could be. More interesting would be what he is overall, hard to tell...

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I wouldn't dismiss it so quickly: http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?t=8317

Also in Central Europe one should consider the invasions of the Huns. Not just in the obvious areas (Hungary).

Another case which reinforces the [speculative] idea that proper Alpines might be an intermediate type between European proper and Asian is this where a different element (Amerindian in this case) in admixture is confused by Alpin[o]id:
http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?p=81321

And again, from the same thread starter of above:
http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?t=8214

[Agrippa]

Single cases of just similar recombination are no prove since in detail they are still quite different usually and there is no prove for the clear Mongoloid influence in Alpinids proper. Every reduction and infantilisation will lead to a more "Alpinid" like form and Alpinisation must be seen as a process.

[Menydh]

I said intermediate types. Not Mongoloid or part Mongoloid.

[pls]

Originally Posted by kyashan

do you think this guy could be partly alpinid?

Yes, clearly Alpinid.

A curiosity, Cofferati in Italy is nicknamed 'The Chinaman', because of the eyes.


Here a few Northern Italians. 'Alpinid' variations, some with a Pseudo-Mongolid look.

Carlo Ancelotti

(politician Castagnetti and Zoologist Celli)

singer Enrico ruggeri (older and younger)

[gauson]

And what about alpinids in northern Spain? Is it a process or an ancient admixture?