[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by bombadillo

Europe, Europeans, and European culture certainly existed before Christianity. And today's European Christianity is a strange hybrid creation -- very different from the primitive faith that came out of Palestine. Christian theology is inconceivable without the impact of neo-Platonism in the early centuries. And later thinkers (e.g., Aquinas and other medieval theologians) further changed it with the attempt to reconcile it with Aristotelian ideas. But still there remains a kernel of non-European dogma (superstition?) at the heart of the religion -- and this is responsible for much of the mischief we see in the American evangelical movement. I would argue that this kernel is profoundly non-European. Nietzsche wrote about this more insightfully than I can manage here.

I would argue that the original traditions of Europe -- the various pagan traditions, druidism, the Norse legends, and so on -- tied as they are to the land and history of our people -- reflect more authentic roots than this alien import. Material like the Old Testament does not relate to us at all but is the basis of an expansionist semitic ideology with its roots in a semitic tribalism.

Well said. I agree!

Originally Posted by Lagun

To be a believer is to be week-minded? Are you anti-theist?

Do you believe that your ancesters, or the great mayority of European, heros, cientists, philosophers, and citizents in general of Europe are and were week-minded people? Which sort of supernatural person are you then?

Do you realy believe that Christiandom is not the base of the whole value system/ ethic code, we have in Europe?

Am I an anti-theist? I oppose theism, so logically yes - but that doesnt mean I have the same sentiments as other antitheists or antitheist ideologues.

I believe that there is a good reason many Europeans are now rejecting Christianity. Christianity may have been a part of the evolution of our culture, but rejecting it is essential for continuing that growth and evolution.

We have to choose reason over faith. Since we cannot dictate that, I have proposed neopaganism be the substitute, for true European nationalists, since we can thus promote cultures and religions that have roots only in Europe - not in Israel or Arabia.

I dont believe all my ancestors or all European ancestors were weak-minded people. Far from all the most acknowledged Western philosophers subscribed to religions or faith, and those that did lived in a time where not doing so was often not considered an option, and where it was at least very unprevalent not doing so. Others, lived in times where only true European paganism was prevalent, which I have less against. Just as intergalactic space travel is not considered an option right now - so I dont blame them for it.

However, today, with so much information available to any ordinary person, through the internet and through libraries and so on, I would blame the individual, and no longer society, for rejecting reasoning.

Originally Posted by Plethon

Correct.

Although I totally disagree with you in everything you just said, I am not going to enter any polemic on that (it is your opinion or view, after all), but could you, please, substantiate the claim that Christianity favours Zionism?

PS. There are far deeper and intellectually more powerful atheist treatises than this worthless propagandistic rant written by Dawkins. For example, Nietzsche or Heidegger, who are worth reading.

I am aware of that, and I have read a lot of atheist literature, also far deeper than Dawkins. However, this 'propagandistic rant' can be read by almost anyone, which is why I often suggest it. It doesnt take heavy intellectual capacity to understand the arguments in it, and that usually suits your average religious person I am trying to convert. (joke - dont take that one seriously, just joking around - claiming a person is stupid is not an argument in a sincere discussion).

Christianity favors Zionism. That is a must. Christianity is a Semitic religion, with roots in Jewish mythology and geographically in Israel. The bible is part Judaistic. Jesus was a Judaist, and most likely a Jew.

All these things ultimately lead up to a Christian country to support Israel and the Zionist cause. Thats why Israel even exists today, the Jewish separatist state, because there was mandate for it from the Christian countries - for taking over large parts of Palestine. Taking over a country, based on the biblical assertion that Israel belongs to the sons of Israel or Jews - clearly rooted in Christianity. Not often, has the West decided to invade and occupy a country, that wasnt hostile. However, with the Zionist cause for the Jewish separatist state, exactly that was decided.

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

I've been reading some books (Krebs, Faye) whose authors also despise christianism as a non-european religion, and favour pagan spirituality instead. I have some problems with this approach.

Firstly, you relate zionist influence in europe to christianism. I cannot agree, and I tend to think that the opposite is true --the progressive weakening of christian faith in europe paved the way to alien powers to control us. Didn't the Catholic Kings kicked out the jews from Spain in 1492? Countless examples of catholic opposition to jewry can be found. However, jewry rise to power occurs simultaneusly to the decline of Christian Faith in Europe.

Secondly, wasn't Charle Magne european? Don Pelayo? The Catholic Kings of Spain? Thomas Aquinas? Dante? Most of our greatest leaders, warriors, artists and thinkers were christians. Do you think they were "misleaded" by a "semitic faith"?

And one last question: how do you define Europe if you do not take into consideration Christianity? Did Europe exist before Christianity? Can we bypass more than 1500 years of our history?

I think that people today who search for the divine are usually very strong-minded. You have to be very strong and dedicated to be able to overcome all the atheistic/materialistic propaganda that's inflicted on us every day and search for something higher than yourself.

As I said - condemning Christianity in present-day society is not the same as condemning every manifestation of Christianity, from thousands of years ago in Europe. Christianity was part of our evolution. Would be here today if we hadnt had Christianity? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe our own paganism would have done the same for us as Christianity, all that is speculative. We can only conclude that Christianity after all has influenced the development of our ideals and society, and that is both positive and negative. A big part of it is positive, and in order to keep growing culturally, we have to move on from Christianity, like we've moved on from living in caves to houses.

That doesnt mean the primitive step in our cultural evolution was unnecessary or replaceable - maybe it was, maybe not, but nevertheless it has gotten us where we are today, and from there we should move on. Anything thats been good for a society doesnt necessarily keep being good for a society forever - and something thats good for a society can be negative, and thus make people realize that its wrong, thus having a positive effect. And that statement is powerful and true.

I have to agree though, that European culture also influenced our form of Christianity, but it still was rooted in Semitic elements, and that is unacceptable today.