[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Tennyson

Churches have had the liberty to decide what kind of marriages they choose to bless, at least until very recent times.

Are you going to tell me that Lutheranism prohibited interracial marriage?

A diatribe of Luther against the medieval Catholic prohibition of mixed marriages with Jews:

Originally Posted by Martin Luther

Just as I may eat, drink, sleep, walk, ride with, buy from, speak to, and deal with a heathen, Jew, Turk, or heretic, so I may also marry and continue in wedlock with him. Pay no attention to the precepts of those fools who forbid it. You will find plenty of Christians—and indeed the greater part of them—who are worse in their secret unbelief than any Jew, heathen, Turk, or heretic. A heathen is just as much a man or a woman—God's good creation—as St. Peter, St. Paul, and St. Lucy, not to speak of a slack and spurious Christian.

It sounds to me as if your prophet was in fact an early promoter of miscegenation. Much advanced for his time.

The Catholic Church does not perform gay marriages and it had the liberty not to perform interracial marriages.

Right, no same-sex marriage is allowed by Rome. And apparently no few Lutheran churches are in favour of same-sex marriage. Should I care? No. I feel no relation to either Gays or Protestants.

Do you disagree that whites and natives entered into Catholic marriages already in the 16th and 17th century? It seems to be obvious that they did so due to the extent of the miscegenation that happened.

I disagree with your dishonesty to present Catholicism as an anti-nationalist belief, under such fallacious arguments, which you bring in the name of Lutheranism.

As early as 1614 the Native American Pocahontas was baptised in the Protestant church and married into it. Surely not an isolated case, but one that you have hidden all along.

I find this most ignoble. Didn't they teach you under the Protestant upbringing that lying in the name of your religious beliefs is a despicable act?
I guess they didn't, since for you salvation doesn't come through your acts but through believing in Jesus. A variant of Judaic predestinationism.

While the source does not exactly validate the categorical statement in my previous post it certainly validates the existence of a major discrepancy in the racial views of the churches. In the 1800s and early 1900s Protestant churchmen who would perform an interracial marriage were very rare in the US.

You still fail to see it, don't you?

Your religion (allegedly Protestantism) is by your own words a materialistic belief, much in line with the other religion which influenced in it, Judaism.

The Catholic Church asserts that Judaism is valid and provides salvation to the Chosen people whereas mainstream Protestant Churches in Europe deny that Jews can reject Christ and be saved.

Your campaign of defamation through lies is, I must say, pathetic beyond belief:

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which church is judaized?

More from your prophet, cursing the Catholic Church for reviling the Jews:

Originally Posted by Martin Luther

The fury of some Christians (if they are to be called Christians) is damnable. They imagine that they are doing God a service when they persecute the Jews most hatefully, think everything evil of them, and insult them with extreme arrogance and contempt amid their pitiable misfortunes, whereas, according to the example of this psalm and that of Paul (Rom. 9:1), a man ought to be most heartily sorry for them and continually pray for them. These folk ought certainly see to it that they listen to Paul (Rom. 11:18): "Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee." And again (v. 20): "Be not high-minded, but fear." But by this tyrannical attitude of theirs these godless people, who are Christians in name only, are inflicting no light injury on the Christian name as well as Christian people. And they are guilty and partakers of Jewish godlessness. By the example of this cruelty they are, as it were, repelling Jews from Christianity, whereas they ought to attract them by all manner of gentleness, patience, pleading, and care.”[69]

There are even some theologians so unreasonable as to sanction such cruelty to the Jews and to encourage people to it; in their proud conceit they assert that the Jews are the Christians’ slaves and tributary to the emperor, while in truth they are themselves Christians with as much right as any one nowadays is Roman Emperor. Good God, who would want to join our religion, even though he were of a meek and submissive mind, when he sees how spitefully and cruelly he is treated, and that the treatment he can expect is not only unchristian, but worse than bestial? If hating Jews and heretics and Turks makes people Christians, we are beyond a doubt worse than Jews, heretics, and Turks, because no one loves Christ less than we. The rage of these people reminds me of children and fools, who, when they see a picture of a Jew on a wall, go and cut out his eyes, pretending that they want to help the Lord Christ. Most of the preachers during Lent treat of nothing else than the cruelty of the Jews towards the Lord Christ, which they are continually magnifying. Thus they embitter believers against them, while the Gospel aims only at showing and exalting the love of God and Christ.

This is hardly surprising that Luther defended his Jewish friends against the Gentiles, since his pretension was to present his schismatic views as the only "Truth" by having the Jews converted to his new religion:

Originally Posted by Martin Luther

The Jews are the most miserable people on earth. They are plagued everywhere, and scattered about all countries, having no certain resting place. They sit as on a wheelbarrow, without a country, people, or government; yet they wait on with earnest confidence; they cheer up themselves and say: It will soon be better with us. Thus hardened are they; but let them know assuredly, that there is none other Lord or God, but only he that already sits at the right hand of God the Father. The Jews are not permitted to trade or to keep cattle, they are only usurers and brokers; they eat nothing the Christians kill or touch; they drink no wine; they have many superstitions; they wash the flesh most diligently, whereas they cannot be cleansed through the flesh. They drink not milk, because God said: “Thou shalt not boil the young kid in his mother’s milk.” Such superstitions proceed out of God’s anger. They that are without faith, have laws without end, as we see in the papists and Turks; but they are rightly served, for seeing they refused to have Christ and his Gospel, instead of freedom they must have servitude. If I were a Jew, the pope should never persuade me to his doctrine; I would rather be ten times racked. Popedom, with its abominations and profanities, has given to the Jews infinite offence. I am persuaded if the Jews heard our preaching, and how we handle the Old Testament, many of them might be won, but, through disputing, they have become more and more stiff-necked, haughty, and presumptuous. Yet, if but a few of the rabbis fell off, we might see them come to us, one after another, for they are almost weary of waiting.

Pathetic? Sure, but he is still willing to go to greather lengths to embrace the Jews and revile the Gentiles:

Originally Posted by Martin Luther

Our fools, the popes, bishops, sophists,  and monks—the crude asses’ heads—have hitherto so treated the Jews that anyone who wished to be a good Christian would almost have had to become a Jew. If I had been a Jew and had seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would sooner have become a hog than a Christian. They have dealt with the Jews as if they were dogs rather than human beings; they have done little else than deride them and seize their property. When they baptize them they show them nothing of Christian doctrine or life, but only subject them to popishness and monkery. When the Jews then see that Judaism has such strong support in Scripture, and that Christianity has become a mere babble without reliance on Scripture, how can they possibly compose themselves and become right good Christians? I have myself heard from pious baptized Jews that if they had not in our day heard the gospel they would have remained Jews under the cloak of Christianity for the rest of their days. For they acknowledge that they have never yet heard anything about Christ from those who baptized and taught them.

I hope that if one deals in a kindly way with the Jews and instructs them carefully from Holy Scripture, many of them will become genuine Christians and turn again to the faith of their fathers, the prophets and patriarchs.  They will only be frightened further away from it if their Judaism is so utterly rejected that nothing is allowed to remain, and they are treated only with arrogance and scorn. If the apostles, who also were Jews, had dealt with us Gentiles as we Gentiles deal with the Jews, there would never have been a Christian among the Gentiles. Since they dealt with us Gentiles in such brotherly fashion, we in our turn ought to treat the Jews in a brotherly manner in order that we might convert some of them.  For even we ourselves are not yet all very far along, not to speak of having arrived.

But as if this pathetism was not enough, he soon starts to get signs that the Jews are not going to embrace him as their brother in God:

Originally Posted by Martin Luther

I myself have discussed this with the Jews, indeed with the most learned of them, who knew the Bible so well that there wasn’t a letter in it that they did not understand. I held up this text to them, and they could not think of anything to refute me. Finally they said that they believed their Talmud; this is their exegesis, and it says nothing about Christ. They had to follow this interpretation. Thus they do not stick to the text but seek to escape it. For if they held to this text alone, they would be vanquished.

But, why should he expect Jews to accept "his truth"?

Well, I've been doing a little intensive search on the internet for the text words of Luther where he actually acknowledges, infuriated, his anger against the Jews for not having embraced his schismatic vision of Christianism, which he admits having reformed by his own translation of the Bible under which, accordingly, the Jews had no reasons left to reject their conversion.

Or, in other words, he had judaicised Christianism.

I would ask you to provide that text, if I trusted that you would do it. But I will not do it.

Were you educated in a Jesuit school?

Absolutely not.

This lousy map is supposed to be an answer to my assertion that the majority of Europe was either Catholic or Orthodox. And in fact it does confirm me, despite a large part of Europe (mostly Orthodox) being absent from the map.

The facts mentioned sum up the view Swedish (and later Finnish) historiography has of the Popes.

I did not refer to "clashes between states" but clashes between nations which desired liberty and the Catholic monarchs supported by the Pope.

What you have mentioned there are but distortions of yourself, by equating nations to states.

The Catholic establishment exemplified by Metternich resented nationalism as much as liberalism. He described ethnic nationalism as a "disorder" which could cause a revolution tearing apart (IMO delegitimate) multinational states such as Austria-Hungary.

XIXth century Romantic Nationalism was in fact a disorder, far from representing true Ethnic Nationalism. To it we owe the creation of "nations" as little ethnic as Italy, or the deconstruction of nations like Spain into states (based on the divisions of old kingdoms).

Austria-Hungary and the Catholics did actively oppose the formation of the German nation-state. While the loyalty of Catholics belongs to the Pope Martin Luther stressed obedience to the state.

You mean the German Empire, as that was its formal name. For which the "nationalist" Otto von Bismarck tried to Germanize the Danish and Polish minorities.

Most nationalistic..

The German Catholic Church has always been multicultural, the German Lutheran Church was nationalist. Although Hitler was a Catholic more Lutherans than Catholics voted for him.

Your bigotry is appalling.

"Through his sermons and his magnificent translations of the Bible, Luther created the modern German language, aroused in the people not only a new Protestant vision of Christianity by a fervent German nationalism and taught them, at least in religion, the supremacy of the individual conscience. But tragically for them, Luther's siding with the princes in the peasant rising, which he had largely inspired, and his passion for political autocracy ensured a mindless and provincial political absolutism which reduced the vast majority of the German people to poverty, to a horrible torpor and a demeaning subservience. Even worse perhaps, it helped to perpetuate and indeed to sharpen the hopeless divisions not only between classes but also between the various dynastic and political groupings of the German people. It doomed for centuries the possibility of the unification of Germany."

--William L. Shirer
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich : A History of Nazi Germany--

I don't like the concept of multicultural Catholic empires in which "all races have equal rights".

And I don't like to be related in any way, be it political or otherwise, with bigoted liars be them Lutheran or Jewish.

It is a good thing to know where each one stand, and to keep well apart from each other since we have nothing in common to look forward to. To us, dignity and nobility of character matter.